–snap–

51 comments for “–snap–”

1. Julie, let him stay just the way he is. It will be a great service to all womankind to see that someone who has it all together…really doesn’t. We will, collectively, walk around smiling in the sure knowledge that we aren’t the only horrible mothers on the planet.

   Cheers and hugs to you.

2. Beats me. I don’t live in your house. I don’t know how you interact with him. I don’t know how much attention you pay to him. I don’t know if you coddle him. I don’t know if you tend to overreact to things he says and now he says them just to get a rise out of you. I don’t know what disciplinary methods you’ve used. I don’t even know if he’s got ADD.

   If my kid pushed out the screen window on the second story, he wouldn’t be able to sit down for a couple days.

   But that’s my kids, not yours. Apples and oranges.

   I’ve found that, much as some other people’s children bother me, I almost never have any basis for telling them how to correct the behavior. I think other parents are often the same way. The most opinionated people about what you should be doing with your kids are usually people who don’t have any.

3. The only option is the same thing we do to domesticate other, less intelligent animals: firm, patient, consistent command that is at the same time loving. There are no guarantees of how things will turn out, either for this child or for your others, but there isn’t any other way

   And the chances are that he’ll turn out to be a lot more like you than you’d like, but that will be just fine with the rest of us.

4. The most frustrating moments of my life have been related to raising my children. They are frustrating because so often, I am left shaking my head in utter confusion, not knowing what to do next. The awful feelings of uncertainty that accompany such times are enough to make a grown man cry.

   I do think that you are doing the right thing by letting him feel the consequences of his actions, and I think that this, tempered with the love you surely show him, will eventually work to help him make wiser choices. Look on the bright side- it is probably just a phase of bad behavior he is going through at times. He’ll get more mature as he gets a little older. (At least that is what I fervently hope with my own children…)

5. Sounds like my brother, the middle child. My mom figured as long as she was clear, firm, and consistent, that he would eventually catch on, at least by the time he got home from his mission. He never did. He brought some sort of a toy gun home from his mission in his luggage (this was just barely before 9/11), and shot little plastic stuff from the toy gun in the house even though his mother told him not to. I kid you not.

   My brother’s mantra was “you can’t make me do anything.” As we were growing up, there was nothing he loved more than the power of being able to make mom snap. The only way to deny him that pleasure would be for her not to snap, but she was human and he was incorrigible, so how could she not occasionally snap? He now treats his succession of girlfriends the same way he treated mom and wonders why none of them will marry him.

   I would find a good family therapist and bring the whole family in so the therapist can evaluate the dynamics. This is beyond the capacity of ordinary human parents, and requires professional help.

   P.S. Silver lining…this same middle brother is the only one of my siblings still active in the church. So there’s hope your 5-year-old will pick Jesus’ side yet.

6. See? We warned you about homeschooling! :)

7. Is the older child more obedient? If so, has the five year old ever been compared to him, either overtly or covertly? If so, that might be at the heart of your problem. If that is the problem, then treating the five year old as an individual and therefore differently than the older one may help. But it could take years, if ever, before the younger one learns to appreciate the older one. Jealousy is hard to over come.

   I treated all of my children the same, and wish I could go back and do things differently.

   CEF

8. Julie, I work from home so I’m very involved in raising my three kids, ages 11 to 2 (with another on the way). Giving advice to another person is extremely difficult, except for this: kids go through stages. They will grow out of the stages and change. That, I can guarantee.

   If he still has severe problems as he grows older, you may want to look into counseling. In my first marriage, I helped raise a stepson who had Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

   You can read more about that here: http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Children+with+Oppositional+Defiant+Disorder&section=Facts+for+Families

   I spent years in very intensive therapy sessions trying to help my stepson and came to know literally dozens of children with ODD or other similar disorders.

   I have no way of knowing if your son has ODD, but it certainly bears watching. Don’t panic: as I said, most kids go through stages and they grow out of those stages.

   By the way, my former stepson is 23 now and doing fine. This too will pass.

9. I’ve got nothing. Good luck.

10. My youngest was a very difficult child. Still is but he’s mellowed a bit now that he’s 12. Extremely strong willed. Much more strong willed than I.

    I avoided power struggles for this reason—he was always more stubborn than I could ever be. I limited the no’s in our house as much as I could, with all my kids. I didn’t want to be constantly telling my kids no. That was easier with the older ones than with him, however.

11. Ah, Julie–welcome to my world!

    5 is pretty young, still, to have an inner sense of morality. Your oldest may be an outlier on the “biddable” end of the spectrum, and your middle son is certainly not the first to go through a “you’re not the boss of me” stage at age 5. I think your punishment fits the crime in this case, and you will probably have many more opportunities for creative discipline with this one.

    Time and patience help. My oldest is spectacularly difficult, still, but the other day he started to hit his sister, stopped with his hand up in the air, and walked away. I felt completely triumphant, probably the way most mothers of 10-year-olds feel when their children earn Citizen of the Year honors.

    I’m sure you’ve read every book there is, but e-mail me if you want to compare bibliography.

    You’re a great mother, called to mother this boy, and therefore entitled to revelation about what you should do for him. The rest of us are just noise (though we can try to be reassuring noise ;))

12. I think team oriented sports can be a good way to help young boys/teenagers learn respect for authority and release aggression. A good coach will help him learn his boundaries, respect others, and achieve potential. At his age he may benefit from a good t-ball or soccer league. When he gets older you may consider little league baseball, or a tackle football league.

13. I have found the book 1-2-3 Magic very helpful. The library probably has it. I would especially pay attention to the tip of “showing no emotion.” I also found James Dobson’s book “The Strong Willed Child” interesting. I would try talking to other parents you know that appear to be/have been effective with their children. I prefer talking to mothers that have had several kids, because they are more likely to have encountered the same issue with one their own kids and they are less likely to tell you . .”Well if you just did . . . .like I did” or “My kid never did that. . .” In the end though I’m sure the Lord will help you know what is best.

    I wouldn’t necessarily take his behavior so personally. It sounds like you are doing the best you know how with him.

14. I am certainly no expert by any means. However, I have witnessed and experienced the dynamics of various parenting methods. I am the 9th of 11 children who were all raised the same: with an iron fist (i.e., physical discipline). For some of my siblings, it was an effective domesticating tool because it fit their personality (i.e., breakable spirits). But it drove others from an “inner sense of morality” and festered defiance (many of them continue in this way today–in middle-age).

    I am now entering “middle-age” and have two children (6 and 3). When my oldest is misbehaving, it only takes a look from me before she’s in tears; the youngest laughs in my face when I grab her shoulders and use a stern voice. I’ve realized (from my experience in a large family setting, and as a father) the reality that every child is different and comes with varying levels of defiance. But I think I’ve also discovered this one universal truth–an approach to domestication that fits all: “Nothing is so much calculated to lead people to [domestication] as to take them by the hand, and watch over them with tenderness. When persons manifest the least kindness and love to me, O what power it has over my mind, while the opposite course has a tendency to harrow up all the harsh feelings and depress the human mind.” (TPJS p. 240)

    The only effective thing you can do is love him!

15. Look, I’m usually not one to be handing out advice in these areas. I mean, what I think is good parenting isn’t necessarily what someone else would think. I’m all for staying out of other people’s business.

    That said, I think you’d benefit greatly from reading Gary Chapman and Ross Campbell’s book The Five Love Languages of Children. Chapman is a marriage therapist; Campbell is a child psychologist (I think). Together, they’ve put together a very helpful book on how to discipline and best relate to your children. It’s worth a read.

16. My kids never acted like that.

17. Uh, I know the point of this post wasn’t to make me feel lucky but I do. So, thanks.
    My five year old hates church also but I’m banking on the phase idea. Otherwise, the next thirteen years are just going to suck.

18. Julie—
    Your post almost brought me to tears with memories. My second son and I somehow got off on the wrong foot and it went downhill from there. What to do with him and about him was the largest rift in our marriage (my husband was much more patient but even he sometimes found himself at the end of his rope.) And as a SAHM I had this child almost all the time to deal with. My husband always said this son and I were too much alike, a fact I now ruefully admit, although it was hard to see (or admit) for many years.

    As parents we talked and talked about what to do, we prayed, we fasted, I cried (many times!), we took classes, read a mountain of books, went to therapy, put him on Ritalin (I believe in Ritalin—at least when it works! And it did help him—and me—because he was on it.) All of it seemed then and now to be a “finger in the dike.” But I think now too that it was important to keep that “finger in the dike” even when it sometimes seemed like a losing proposition. Someone once told me, “A misbehaving child is a discouraged child.” I think it works that way for moms too. I was often discouraged and certainly not at my best with him, in fact I think I made more mistakes with him than with all of our other children combined. There were many times I felt like giving up. But I could never be faulted for not trying!

    When he turned 19 I said, “one of us is going on a mission and it’s not me.” Only when he had left did I recognize how hyper-vigilant I had become. I was panicked when a few months into his mission the time was shortened to 18 months. (He was part of that first group who didn’t have a choice of whether to stay longer.) Things were actually some better when he came home. He married a woman who had been a Jr. High teacher. I figured managing a whole class of Jr. High kids or her new husband would be equivalent activities. Actually they seem to have a great marriage. He is now in his 40s, a fine contributing member of society, a great dad, and active in the Church. However he still knows how to push my buttons and he and I both understand that we are better off dealing with each other in (relatively) small doses. Several weeks ago his teenaged son asked my husband who our most difficult child had been. My husband said, his dad, to which our grandson replied, “I thought so.”

    Life is full of surprises. If someone had told me years ago that I would have an inactive son (after a mission and temple marriage) I would have guessed this second son. But he is not, rather it is a son I never would have imagined. And I have been totally blindsided by that development. Parenting is always full of surprises—forever. I have little advise, but lots of empathy. I guess my only advise is “hang in there”. It is not over until it is over for any of us.

    And hugs and love!

19. You could always tomato stake him. :)

20. Julie, blessings to you. This will be a “soul stretching” experience. Consider triggers in the nutritional realm. Watch what he eats and allow up to 24 hours to see him shift his behavior. The foods can be wide, variable and sometimes it can be subtle ingredients, like Vitamin C. Try various bland diets for short periods of time to give him time to settle. Then challenge him wiht sweets, dairy, etc.
    The love language book mentioned above is a great one.
    As Job said, always remember, Job 19:28 “But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?” We are always responsible for how we feel. This is your opportunity. The answer to your “snap”, is definitely within you. I don’t intend that as a critcism, nor an accusation, just an opportunity.

21. Thanks for all of the thoughtful comments. A few thoughts:

    When I said “snap,” I didn’t mean flip out and yell. In fact, I could have been a parenting-book example of how to respond to this type of thing today: I acted quickly and decisively, spoke firmly and calmly, no emotion, no yelling, etc. (Now: I do yell at this child from time to time and then, of course, feel terrible about it. What Beijing said about the child–and, I noted, a middle child, doing this sort of thing to get a reaction out of mom rang true to me.) I was trying to figure out why/how I handled this so well since the situation was so terrible, and I think it is because I Had A Plan (i.e., going home and him missing the party.) I completely relate to Jordan F.’s sentiment of the frustration of having no idea what the &$^% to do with a misbehaving child. Today I knew what to do and did it. I think that may actually be why I snapped: usually I’m too busy being upset with myself for getting angry to think through how problematic the child’s behavior has been. In any case, the one thing I’ve realized is that I probably need to arm myself for each day by deciding in advance what consequences I can pull out of my hat as needed.

    As far as this child being like me: some of you have gone 200 comments arguing with me and therefore have a glimmer into my own stubbornness. This little fruit is sitting right next to the tree.

    CEF: I can honestly say that I don’t compare him to the very-well-behaved older child. I make a lot of mistakes with him (mostly yelling), but comparing isn’t one of them.

    Kristine, will you post your bibliography here? I appreciated Melissa’s recommendation and would yours as well.

    James M–the last time (about a year ago) he had a really bad spell, a dear friend suggested martial arts. He initially loved the idea and then grew to hate it and getting him there became a battle. (long sigh) But he has been asking to play football . . .

    Wade, we don’t spank our kids (although some days I’d like to do a lot more than that . . .).

22. Amira,

    Are your trying to punish me or him? :)

23. Er, got cut off there. Seriously, Amira, I’ve thought about it, but it seems that for a child as oppositional as he is it would lead to an unproductive battle. (But maybe not.) Regardless, I had recently mentally graduated him to the “does not need constant supervision at the park” category and that was clearly a mistake.

24. Honestly, tomato staking sounds so awful that I don’t think I could do it. But I’ve seen you with your kids, so I’m not inclined to think it would make a huge difference anyway. You’re already keeping track of them. It’s too bad martial arts didn’t work. It’s been a lifesaver here.

    I don’t think therapy is a bad idea if this is wearing your family down. It’s nice to have an objective and trained outside observer give you some ideas. In fact, I wouldn’t wait. I’ve rarely heard a parent in your situation regret therapy, and I’ve heard many wish they’d gone sooner.

25. One of my sisters was rather rebellous. My parents kept tight rules with her. They fought over coke and jeans so they wouldnt be fighting real sins. They also had real consequences for disobedience. I like the 1-2-3 Magic idea because it puts the child in control. They can choose to obey or choose the consequence. That sister turned out to be the straightest arrow in the family and is the mother of 5 wonderful boys. Let the child know what behavior is unacceptable. Have them give their imput into the consequences for disobedience and then when they disobey, make the consequence stick. Be consistent, dont be wishy-washy. Always let them know that you love them.

26. Julie, I have a kid a little like this — inexplicably attracted to mischief, darkness, swearing, even violence (not doing it, at least not yet — just thinking about it, watching it, playing about it). Mine has been diagnosed with ADHD and we are looking into bipolar — on a waiting list for a real psychiatrist. But you know, a diagnosis isn’t everything …
    The one thing that has helped so far (aside from medication, but that is not really for the attracted-to-evil problem) is consistent non-negative attention. Positive is great when you can do it, but even just verbalizing anything that is not negative, like “I notice you’re playing with Legos” or “You sat in your seat all the way through the sacrament” (my fantasy). And then the more positive you can give him, the better. With my son, it seems like once he gets a taste of authentic positive reinforcement he will try so much harder to get even more of it. If only I were patient and calm enough to keep this up …
    This came from a book my mom gave me called “Transforming the Difficult Child.” The author is Howard Glasser.
    http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Howard-Glasser/dp/0967050707/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0584733-0536962?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177730275&sr=8-1

27. From a mom whose young kids make frequent comments (like every week) about not wanting to go to church, who often don’t want to “try to be like Jesus”, who told the home teacher tonight when he asked what would you do if someone said something mean to you, “I would be angry and get back at them”—

    REMEMBER: The more reaction you give to the negative moral statements and behavior, the more you ask for it. I find that I have to be confident enough in the innocence and purity of my kids (particularly before age 8) and secure enough in myself as a parent to not freak out, be PATIENT as I downplay whatever was said or done (as hard as it is!!!!!!!!!), and find fun ways to reinforce the positive I see in them, sometimes right then, but usually at other times than in the heat of a particular moment.
    Pointing out to the child his/her kindnesses to friends or siblings, their best side that’s come out in other areas is REALLY important. When my daughter says, “I hit my sister because I’m a mean girl” i don’t argue with her, but I do remind her about how loving and unselfish she has been to the little sister on other occasions and how much her sister obviously adores her.

28. Julie,

    I wasn’t implying you do or don’t (should or shouldn’t) “spank” your kids. Rather, I was offering my two-cents–albeit insignificant–concerning the most effective method to endear your son to you such that he will emulate you (or at least your efforts to domesticate him). I’ve never spanked either of my children, but my wife has; and I’m not against spanking so long as it is coupled with the verities expressed by Joseph in the quote I shared. Also, I don’t profess to be one who abides by this piece of wisdom (i.e., fierce loyalty to love and tenderness). But from personal experience, I know it works.

    I sympathyze with this current struggle of yours, have thought about it a great deal myself, and decided to share my conclusion thus far.

29. Wade, I didn’t think you necessarily was doing that–I just wanted to toss that out.

    Note to others: please don’t turn this into a thread on spanking. We’ve had that conversation too many times.

30. Julie, my sympathies. Your son sounds like a handful. I have a 4 yo handful as well, but with different challenges. (I am considering homeschooling, do you homeschool your children?)
    I have no real life suggestions, but I do have an author that I really like: Becky Bailey. (Easy to love, difficult to discipline) Her model for parenting is positive, loving guidance. In my mind it’s close to the gospel in parenting style. Some ideas: Conflict is an opportunity to teach, when a child misbehaves I must attribute positive intent to his actions, consequences must be direct or they are punishments (no punishments), if there are no direct consequences, then problem solve. I have really liked her works, although translating it into daily parenting has been difficult for me.
    I wish you luck.

31. I’m out of depth with my own children, but finding some help in Faber and Mazlish’s Siblings Without Rivalry and How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen so your Kids will talk.

32. I’ll second Amira’s (and others) therapy suggestions. My parents were having a devil of a time with my younger sister when she hit teenagerdom, and they ended up in therapy. It was a life saver and a blessing for them. In fact, my sister is now the child that’s closest to them emotionally. It was a rough couple of years to get there, but with a therapist they did. (My parents kept going after my sister quit… it’s been quite helpful for them in dealing with the transition from having kids to being empty-nesters.)

    Though you might have those stubbornness issues to deal with; if he doesn’t want to go to church, is he really going to want to go sit and talk to someone?

    The other book I’ve heard really works (I haven’t read it, though I think I need to, having a budding teenager around the house) Is Parenting with Love and Logic by Jim Fay. (I discovered this one, too… I have no clue if it’s helpful.) It’s another one that worked wonders for my parents when my sister was going through her difficult phase.

33. Um, sorry about that second link. Here’s the second book. (I hope.)

34. I think sometimes the smartest kids end out having the worst issues: either totally stuck in their own heads or figuring out ways to torment the people around them.

    I have absolutely no idea what you can do. I have no kids, my sisters weren’t like that, and the one time I had a child in my Primary class like that, I came home from church frustrated and near tears every week until she was moved to a different class.

    But, kids can and do change. My stepfather had issues that sound a lot like your son’s when he was a kid — he ended out going to a super-strict Baptist school for a few years (after being kicked out of his public school,) still wasn’t quite normal in high school (but no longer attacking older boys), then he joined the Army, and now he’s productive, etc. He even became a Mormon of his own free will.

    Whatever it was that the mega-discipline did at the time, he’s not at all violent now (even when in situations you’d think anyone would be sorely tempted) and I don’t think he spanked any kid of any age more than about 5 times total (for all of us kids combined.) And ironically, he’s raised 3.5 kids (I was only around him half the time ^_^), not one of whom is at all violent or oppositional — only one of us has ever been pulled over by the police for anything (and that was speeding.) Heck, even his grandkids are sweet. So, there’s hope.

    Something that might be instructive (or at least reassuring): his parents weren’t very good at their jobs (as parents) and he still came out okay.

35. About church– I have one who has been a struggle since he was old enough to go to nursery. He’s fifteen. He’s still a struggle, and currently does not attend church. Back in the good old days, before I had teenagers and was sure I knew everything about them, I remember wondering why a couple of families in our ward didn’t force their teenagers to go to church. Now I understand. You have to choose your battles, and if everything is a battle, then well, sometimes church has to go. I’m not recommending that you do that with your five year old, but if I were to do things differently with church, I’d look much more carefully at what was actually going on in the meetings when he was younger. And maybe this isn’t a problem with your ward, but I think at least part of my kid’s problem comes from the environment he’s been in. (And one of his teachers came to me when he was about 8 and said that my son understood the gospel better than he’d ever known a child to understand it at that age, so that’s not the problem)
    Because of our link with a couple of ethnic wards, we ALWAYS have had the 11:00 time slot for the past 18 years. I think my kid learned to associate church with being hungry and tired, from the time he was tiny. We tried taking snacks, but he’s not the kind of kid who’ll fall asleep at church, so we finally just started taking him home for the last two meetings when he was about 18 months old, since nursery was a bust for an exhausted toddler. That worked ok, and I would do it again, but when he hit Sunbeams, he had quit napping and we had him stay. Actually I think things went ok for a few years, till he was about 8, and the ward was split. Even now, years later, he still really hasn’t got friends in the ward. They were cliqued up when we moved in, and stayed that way. He was the only kid in the ward who went to a different elementary school than the kids his age. He’s gone on some activities, before he quit, but came back feeling left out. Also, most of the boys his age are terribly behaved– crawling on the floor in sacrament meeting, even when they were in middle school. Another one of his sunday school teachers apologized to me when he was in middle school for how terribly the class behaved, and she said that my son was never a problem. The problem is that if you’re forcing the kid to go to church and sit through this kind of stuff, it really doesn’t help the kid at all. I’ve tried talking to my bishop, who basically got all defensive and said that I couldn’t expect perfection, but I said that I did expect at least civility. Lately I heard that the same class has driven out a couple of teachers, and they came up with the plan of having the dads go sit with the boys that are misbehaving. But some of the dads are oblivious to what the kids are doing. Some dads aren’t in the ward, some are teaching or in other callings. I suggested that the kids leave class and go sit with whichever parent is available in that parents’ class. I think sending a fifteen year old boy to sit through RS is a fairly good consequence, but the male leaders seemed to think that would be breaking a law of heaven or something. Anyway, that’s a long way to say that I think that you should take a look at what’s actually going on at church– make sure he’s included, make sure classes aren’t agony.

    That said, my SIL very seriously tried to get us to take her kid when he was about 13. She couldn’t manage him. I didn’t want to do it, since I had small children, and no idea of what I would do with a middle schooler. He went to UVSC, met a really bright girl from BYU, joined the air force, and is doing great. I really think he’s her favorite out of the six now. Her two kids that were the golden kids in high school are kind of drifting now, not able to make up their minds what they want to do. One dropped out of college, with no plans…. anyway it ain’t over till it’s over.

36. Not all boys like to be domesticated…

    The thing that occurs to me (and I’m not a parent, so who knows) is, what does he like about these things? Is it just the defiance part? That would be one case. But it would be another if the behaviors clustered around a few particular things, or kinds of things (like risk-taking) he wants to do but can’t for whatever reason. In such a case, it would not be the joy of goading you but frustration associated with being unable to do things he wants to giving rise to aggressive behavior. If so, finding ways of letting him do the things he wants to (even if some run against your instincts, like rough-housing (I don’t know you or your house rules) may actually help his behavior. He may get some kicks by defying you, but he may also be a deeply frustrated little boy.

37. Just another book recommendation: “Between Parent and Child”, by Haim Gringott, with Wallace Goddard (who happens to be Mormon, a family therapist, and an overall fantastic guy). It truly changed the entire way I parent, and I believe for the better.

    Good luck, and know we’ve all been there!

38. My favorite parenting book, hands down, is The Power of Positive Parenting by the late Glenn Latham. I was first introduced to him at Education Week a billion years ago. He has some other great books as well and adds a gospel perspective.

39. My solutions have involved bribes, threats, patience, threats, flexibility, threats, creativity, more threats, failure and many knee worn prayers and repentance. My life was blessed. At college, I developed a deep friendship with a recent convert. I brought her home for the holidays since she had been disbarred from her own family for being LDS. I married at 21. She remains single. When my younger sister became an unwed, LDS pregnant teenager, Jeanie was there to be a listening ear and stabilize my mother and my sister’s relationship. She talked my youngest brother through a severe case of “I’m-not-going-on-a-mission” angst. Now an RM, he has always called her his favorite-almost-sister. When I had my own children, she was there to baby-sit, take them on birthday dates and was at my daughter’s wedding in SLC. Aunt Jeanie just spent time with them. She helped me shuttle my half dozen children around to endless sports and church activities. She was there when my husband was out of town or in church service to aid in my sacrament survival with 6 small wiggleworts. She was there when the boys fought 25/7 (not a typo – they fought more hours than there were in a day). She even helped me home school, developed lessons and weekend trips for the children. She was there to be the outside stabilizer when I was too exhausted, too frustrated and too Mommied out to think straight. Aunt Jean has been our lifesaver for two generations now. When my 5th child was three, she introduced Aunt Jean as her other-other mother. Soon, our dear Jeanie will be an other-other grandmother to my daughter’s first child.
    So to post #2 who mentions that the most opinionated people are those with no children, I say “sometimes true” but also the most helpful people may just be friends who have no children. I’m humbled to think that I invited her for Christmas because I wanted to help her. Move to SLC and borrow Aunt Jeanie. That’s what friends are for.

40. Continuing the theme of picking your battles, we only insisted on Sac. Meeting. We recognized that many Church classes were truly horrendous, and insisting that our children attend could be counterproductive. We got a lot of criticism but the long term results have borne us out. I would absolutely do it this way again. I even had a couple of kids when I was Primary Pres. who only came to Sac. Meeting. I made a point to tell them and their parents that I understood and complimenting them all around for being in Sac. Meeting. (Of course with little kids this means you are only getting to one meeting also.) The consequences are so important that I wouldn’t hesitate to be released from other callings to focus on this child. Anyway it needs to be fine tuned and confirmed by the Spirit. Parenting is a continuing challenge–FOREVER. Sometimes gives you pause on the LDS view of “heaven”.

41. I’ve rushed to the end to make two quick points, and will try to get back later to read everyone’s comments. First, a friend told me about a book called “The Explosive Child” by Ross Greene. I’ve read some of it (my little tyrant is not yet three, so it’s not urgent for me–he may grow out of his particular pattern soon), and was impressed with some of the book’s ideas.
    My second comment is a description of an experience I had recently. I made the huge tactical mistake of stopping on a Saturday afternoon to stop for “just a few things” at a hugely busy discount store with my toddler and 9 year old. The toddler was hungry and, I learned upon arriving in the store (a long way from the car), was wearing a diaper stunningly saturated. We’d only been inside for about 10 seconds before he’d pitched his first fit about not wanting to ride in the cart, and wouldn’t be cajoled–when I picked him up he did that nearly perfect escape maneuver, throw your arms over your head and squirm so you’ll slide right out of anyone’s grasp. I woman-handled him up somehow, and hurried toward my destination, past long lines at the checkout lanes. Two meltdowns later, I abandoned the errands (stupid that it took me so long, but I rarely get out that way, and it seemed so simple!) and tried to plan damage control. I tell this story because in the midst of this place, I was visited with certain grace–I was able to see how funny it was in a way, and I recognized that just by being there, and yes, by leaving there, I was cheering up hundreds of people, who were thanking their lucky stars they weren’t me, weren’t in my shoes, having to do what I was doing. It’s rare that I can bring so much joy and relief to such a crowd in such a short time.

42. Parenting requires us to both love and discipline our kids. Some kids need more discipline than others. That’s just the way it is.

    You may have to try different approaches until something works. Unfortunately, what works today may not work next week.

    My best success was counting to five. I never told the kids what would happen if I ever got to five; I left that part up to their imagination. Anyways, I never made it all the way to five. They’d always listen before I got there. Kids have very active imaginations don’t they?

    For my grandkids, my daughter has great success with time-outs. But you have to be firm. They’ll cry and carry on, but time-out is time-out.

    When it is something life threatening, such as the screen on the second floor thing, I resorted to spanking. It gets their attention right away and shows both the severity of their action and that it won’t be tolerated one whit. I had one little boy who used to bolt — did that in a busy grocery store parking lot one time and I was so frightened at the thought of a car backing up over him… anyways, I caught up to him and spanked him then and there. He never did it again.

43. I am not a parent, but I am a Special Education teacher and I have written many BIP’s (Behavior Intervention Plans) in the past 6 years. One thing that helps my come up with individualized plans for my students is an ABC log. I keep track of the Antecedents, Behaviors, and Consequences. This often helps me find triggers to the behavior or intentional or unitentional consequences that perpetuate the behavior. Good Luck!

44. Two of my sons have recently been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. The 2 year old is a long story (!) but the 7 year old I had just thought was about 120% boy. I thought his head banging was cute. He was just a quirky kid who would rather have suppositories than liquid medicine, who had to have everything explained to him in great detail, who was afraid of everything, who had trouble putting together cause and effect, and who just hadn’t yet outgrown having 20 minute screaming tantrums. It wasn’t until his little brother was diagnosed (after little brother started being very, very aggressive against other kids) that I started to put it together. He felt so bad about himself because we were constantly saying “Don’t do that!” “Quit it!” “Get up!” “Sit still!” and he just was not capable of doing it. We tried being more positive but there just wasn’t anything to be positive or even neutral about– he was constantly doing things that would be harmful to himself or others– jumping off 6 foot fences even after his friend broke his arm doing the same, “exploding” halfway down the stairs, knocking over his drink at the table, prodding people till they yelled at him… And then there was the “naked dancing” incident at church; don’t ask.

    Basically the Asperger’s kids are in an ongoing power struggle with the world around them. They don’t understand it and they often have sensory problems so just being in the world overwhelms them sometimes. They try to take power over the world in different ways– by having rigid routines, by developing coping mechanisms like head-banging, by asking everyone to explain everything to them, by scientifically exploring people’s reactions with provocation experiments, or by just being mad at everything and everyone.

    If I were you I’d look into the possibility of Asperger’s Syndrome. It’s not uncommon for Aspies to be difficult to domesticate. They also have normal or above normal language development and tend to be intelligent or sound like “little professors”.

45. I have 4 boys under 7 and they are all different and react to parenting different.

    I have no advice to offer except good luck.

46. I’ve been there. This is what I recommend. Get your son into the pediatrician. When you set the appointment, make sure the receptionist schedules you a big enough block that you get some good face time with the doctor. When you go, take along another adult to watch your son so that you can be alone with your doctor to give him/her the details of the behavior–lots of clear, concrete examples and how frequently they occur. If, after talking with you and examining your son, the doctor has no concerns and–this is the most important part–what he/she recommends jives with your gut instinct, then you probably just have an extremely stubborn kid. Otherwise, ask for a referral for a child psychologist and repeat the process. Often mild forms of disorders like ADD or Asperger’s don’t present with the “classic symptoms.” My son’s Asperger’s was only diagnosed because his teacher tested him–she never even thought about Asperger’s, but instead planned on using the information from the test to help her better gauge where his strengths and weaknesses were in social communication.

    Most of the time it will just be stubborness, but on the off chance it is not, the sooner you get help the better. Trust your gut. For many women it is their most useful but most under rated mothering tool.

47. Here’s a novel about the worst-case scenario, We Need to Talk About Kevin. You can read it and feel relieved that things aren’t that bad, or feel doomed that they are that bad. Article by Barbara Kay: “WNTTAK is the story of a school massacre perpetrated by the eponymous lad himself when just under the age of 16 (deliberately, as he knew he wouldn’t get the death penalty). It’s an epistolary novel, a series of letters from Kevin’s mother to Kevin’s father after the massacre of 7 students, a teacher and a janitor at the boy’s school. Kevin’s mum never actually wanted children, so raising a kid she can see from Day One is a bad ‘un fills her with morbid guilt, even when reason tells her that it isn’t her fault. The novel is a gripping read. One wag calls it ‘Desperate Housewives by Euripides’. “

48. “Giving advice to another person is extremely difficult, except for this: kids go through stages. They will grow out of the stages and change. That, I can guarantee.”

    I can remember my dad saying that since it was ME having the hopefully-outgrown-soon phase!

    I’m glad people are mentioning Asperger’s. Not knowing the son, I have no clue if he fits, but Julie, it’s worth looking into. It was the answer for us, anyway.

49. Julie, you live in Texas right? Sign him up for football! I’m being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I hearken to the experience of my friend who is a youth football coach. He often gets kids whose parents say, “He’s just uncontrollable and I can’t do anything with him; he’s physically violent toward other kids.” My friend puts them on the offensive line and lets them get run over a few times by his defensive linemen (even at age 7, they let them hit, and he always puts his biggest kids on the defensive line). When they’ve learned what it’s like to get hit a few times, he says they often mellow out or else learn to proper channel their aggression.

    A friend signed her overaggressive son up for martial arts. They say it helps.

    Purely anecdotal advice; not sure how valid any of it is beyond what people have told me.

50. Julie, Hugs to you! My now 10-year-old daughter said when she was 3 that she wished there was no Jesus and Heavenly Father so she could do whatever she wanted! She has been oppositional and defiant from the get-go, and I have often said it seems like she has NO conscience! She steals, likes, sneaks, and does what she\’s told not to do endlessly. Consequences don\’t phase her, and rewards don\’t much either. I used info from \”Transforming the Difficult Child\” and tried to catch her being good as apply positive reinforcement as much as humanly possible, and that seemed to work for a little while, but everything I do is only short-lived in its success. I still try to catch the positive–I think that\’s the best thing we can do, but it certainly hasn\’t changed her behavior. She just almost seems programmed to be a juvenile delinquent! It takes NOTHING for her to blow up, she\’s constantly rude and sassy…and well, have I said enough? I have cried, ached, and suffered so much in my efforts to love and guide her. It\’s hard to see parents who get to have joy in watching their children make good choices. Some of us put as much or more effort into parenting only to have our hearts broken day after day.

    But on the other hand she has the most loving personality (sounds contradictory) and reaches out to others so naturally. She\’s very compassionate, except that she doesn\’t get how she harms people by stealing (she steals from friends, classmates, teachers, and us, her parents). I\’ve had so many calls from parents, teachers, the school principal, and had to suffer all the humiliation. I work as a substitute teacher in her school so I\’ve gotten to know the principal and fortunately he\’s kind and understanding, but I\’ve heard teachers make comments about other kids who misbehave who assume they get no discipline at home. I want to say \”YOU DON\’T KNOW THAT!\” I\’m just saying all this so you don\’t blame yourself–I think some kids really come wired this way! Of course I\’ve read all the \”difficult child\” philosophies. Those of us who struggle with difficult children are constantly trying to find answers and have probably heard it all!

    I am currently trying tomato staking, because the minute I turn my head–such as take a shower, use the bathroom, etc–she\’s running around the house sneaking and hiding things. It\’s a last resort. Will it work? Probably not, but I figure trying to get her to understand how not being trustworthy is affecting her freedom is worth a shot. She\’s been grounded so many times and it makes no difference. We do reward charts, spanking, reasoning, teaching…gee whiz, I feel like I\’ve tried it all.

    Believe me, she came with this personality. I haven\’t always reacted to it well, but people almost universally blame the parenting for whatever kids do, and I can tell you kids come with a personality. Maybe some people handle difficult children better than others, but it is wrong to blame parents for everything their children do. I personally had a drug-addicted mother who encouraged me to do drugs, be with boys, etc., and I ended up joining the LDS church at 17, served a mission, and have been VERY active in the church for 27 years now. So does my mom get the credit or blame? No, I came with a certain personality. My brother and sister both chose my mom\’s lifestyle.

    So I have no answers, only a pat on the back because the Lord trusted you with this hard job!!!!

51. Julie, Hugs to you! My now 10-year-old daughter said when she was 3 that she wished there was no Jesus and Heavenly Father so she could do whatever she wanted! She has been oppositional and defiant from the get-go, and I have often said it seems like she has NO conscience! She steals, likes, sneaks, and does what she\’s told not to do endlessly. Consequences don\’t phase her, and rewards don\’t much either. I used info from \”Transforming the Difficult Child\” and tried to catch her being good as apply positive reinforcement as much as humanly possible, and that seemed to work for a little while, but everything I do is only short-lived in its success. I still try to catch the positive–I think that\’s the best thing we can do, but it certainly hasn\’t changed her behavior. She just almost seems programmed to be a juvenile delinquent! It takes NOTHING for her to blow up, she\’s constantly rude and sassy…and well, have I said enough? I have cried, ached, and suffered so much in my efforts to love and guide her. It\’s hard to see parents who get to have joy in watching their children make good choices. Some of us put as much or more effort into parenting only to have our hearts broken day after day.

    But on the other hand she has the most loving personality (sounds contradictory) and reaches out to others so naturally. She\’s very compassionate, except that she doesn\’t get how she harms people by stealing (she steals from friends, classmates, teachers, and us, her parents). I\’ve had so many calls from parents, teachers, the school principal, and had to suffer all the humiliation. I work as a substitute teacher in her school so I\’ve gotten to know the principal and fortunately he\’s kind and understanding, but I\’ve heard teachers make comments about other kids who misbehave who assume they get no discipline at home. I want to say \”YOU DON\’T KNOW THAT!\” I\’m just saying all this so you don\’t blame yourself–I think some kids really come wired this way! Of course I\’ve read all the \”difficult child\” philosophies. Those of us who struggle with difficult children are constantly trying to find answers and have probably heard it all!

    I am currently trying tomato staking, because the minute I turn my head–such as take a shower, use the bathroom, etc–she\’s running around the house sneaking and hiding things. It\’s a last resort. Will it work? Probably not, but I figure trying to get her to understand how not being trustworthy is affecting her freedom is worth a shot. She\’s been grounded so many times and it makes no difference. We do reward charts, spanking, reasoning, teaching…gee whiz, I feel like I\’ve tried it all.

    Believe me, she came with this personality. I haven\’t always reacted to it well, but people almost universally blame the parenting for whatever kids do, and I can tell you kids come with a personality. Maybe some people handle difficult children better than others, but it is wrong to blame parents for everything their children do. I personally had a drug-addicted mother who encouraged me to do drugs, be with boys, etc., and I ended up joining the LDS church at 17, served a mission, and have been VERY active in the church for 27 years now. So does my mom get the credit or blame? No, I came with a certain personality. My brother and sister both chose my mom\’s lifestyle.

    So I have no answers, only a pat on the back because the Lord trusted you with this hard job!!!!

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