You’re being greedy. You’re acting like Madame Blueberry before she gets religion.
Since we can afford otherwise, I don’t think there is any reason to raise four kids in a two-bedroom house.
Whoa! Slow down! First, you only have three kids.
But we want another. And it makes no sense to move when pregnant and/or with a newborn.
I’ll let that go for now, as long as you realize that you are being a tad bit arrogant about your fertility. You’re no spring chicken anymore, you know. Anyway, second point: are you clear that you can afford otherwise? Do you have six months of savings ?
Does the 401(K) count?
The 401 (K) could be gone in one day if the stock market crashes!
What do you want me to do: hide the retirement fund under the mattress? That would be gone in one day if the house burns down.
Hmph. Third: you do not have a two-bedroom house. You have a three bedroom house. You just can’t use the third bedroom because it is full of books and toys.
Look, there’s no point in being miserable and cramped when we can afford a larger house, even if we don’t technically need a bigger house.
Do the thousands of people who will starve to death today need that money more than you need a bigger house?
We pay tithing and then some. We donate to charities. We are generally frugal. Do you remember that I cut my own hair?
Yeah, but you could do more–especially if you aren’t tied down to a larger mortgage.
Don’t you find it the teeniest bit ironic that you are always asking for more while criticizing me for wanting more?
I’m asking for more on behalf of other people who are dying for want of $1 worth of food–you are asking for tens of thousands of dollars more so your children can have their own bedrooms.
Point taken. But I think the small house impacts the spiritual climate: we’re always on top of each other–no doors to close–and hence more arguing. Don’t you think things would be easier if I could send the kids to separate rooms?
That’s about as tacky as the marketing of religious knick-knacks to Mormons: you’re thinking you can buy spirituality. Learn how to discipline your kids without buying a bigger house.
There’s nothing wrong with having a home sufficient for our needs.
You already have a home sufficient for your needs: what infinitesimal fraction of all the people who have ever lived have enjoyed a solid roof over their heads, indoor plumbing, and air conditioning?
I’m not sure we should let neanderthals set the standard for what constitutes adequate housing.
You are considering a house that’s 3300 square feet . . .
Yeah, but it doesn’t cost any more than the 2400 square foot house–is it a sin to have a lower price per square foot?
I’m still not convinced you need 2400 square feet!
I don’t know of any GAs that live in sod huts.
You usually hate it when people defend their morality based on what GAs do or don’t do.
There’s nothing wrong with having a home that meets the needs of our family!
You already have that!
etc.
A very familiar discussion to Melissa and me, Julie–both from what happened between us, and what happened with in our own heads. Thanks for putting it together in this way.
No doubt there will be some who will argue that some of the issues you’re apparently juggling shouldn’t be issues, but I’ll put in a pre-emptive disagreement: notions of size, bedroom space, discipline issues, spiritual development, personal contentment, affordability, financial obligations and more all seem to me to very valid concerns for someone who wants to live humbly, and raise good kids, and be happy at home, and not get stuck in a bad neighborhood, and wants to avoid debt, and do good in the world, all at the same time. Your voice, and the voice in your head, are both making good arguments; neither can be easily dismissed.
For what it’s worth, this kind of conversation broke most clearly into the open between Melissa and I during the home-shopping process when we talked about bathrooms. Melissa had put her foot down: we parents would have our own bathroom, and the home as a whole would have 2 1/2 bathrooms total, or else. I was fine with that, not really thinking much about it. (I’m the one man in the house; I always have a bathroom to myself when using it.) It was only after we’d gotten deep into the process when I learned that our realtor’s family–also Mormon, with five kids, a mix of boys and girls–had always made do with just two, with no problem. Suddenly, our demands seemed to me terribly self-conscious by comparison.
Will a larger house mean a longer commute and therefore less time to spend with the family?
I am having this debate with myself on a smaller scale: #1 son is very private, very into collecting stuff (not expensive stuff, not greediness, just one of those people who needs to have supplies around–possibly he’s been reincarnated after having lived through the Great Depression!) and wants his own room. I’ve always thought it was Important and Character-Building and Righteous for children to share rooms. But #1 son is not “children,” he’s a particular person and it’s hard to maintain my commitment to an abstraction over my wish to fill his need/wish (it’s both) for a space where he can shut the door to his noisier, more social, less careful younger siblings.
Different people’s families have different needs. For example, I have kids with a very definite need for their own physical space. Their mental traits make it difficult for them to carve out personal space without carving out physical space. A family full of kids like that may very well need a many-bedroomed house. Some families run a business out of their home. You can’t expect that to not take up any more space than a family would need that isn’t running a business out of their home. Some families are devoted to books more than others and need a space for books, while other families are more outdoorsy and really only need a space for their camping gear. You are not a Neanderthal, a GA, or a poor starving person in China or the Philippines or whatever the area of the day is. And as far as the difference in money goes, you and I could have a whole other discussion about economics and price differences and wealth transfers. You couldn’t borrow the same $10,000 and then send it to 10,000 people who are starving for want of $1 a day of food.
Buy a bigger house and be grateful that the Lord has provided you with a job sufficient for your financial needs and a house sufficient for your housing needs and a family sufficient to drive you insane. :)
I can make you feel worse by saying that I live in a 1200 sq foot apartment with three teenagers.
But man if we could afford it I’d LOVE a big house.
Wow Julie, you are a mind-reader. This is exactly the mental battle I’ve had.
I think home-schooling definitely ‘qualifies’ you for more space.
BTW, I still remember your post with pictures of your house!
In college I drove a 1990 Pontiac Firebird. Upon graduation and obtaining a “real job”, I felt the desire to obtain a 2000 Honda. The gas guzzler was reliable and got me from A to B, but it didn’t change the fact that it was a gas guzzler, it had 2 doors (I could never function with a two door and kids) and a symbol of my collegiate poverty. Because I’ve heard GA’s speak about going into a modest amount of debt to obtain a modest, reliable car, I had no qualms. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do– and what you want to do– to be happy. If you feel a larger home would help you (and your family) get there, go for it. I don’t exactly think that enjoying the fruits of your labors is the path to hell. But then, I really love driving my little Honda… though I might ache for t-tops in the summer…
When I have this same internal discussion, I alwsy hear “We have sufficient for our needs” ring through my ears. What that means is up to interpretation.
The fact that you’re having this conversation with yourself is good and healthy. Ultimately, however, I agree with Wacky Hermit. Go ahead and buy the bigger house. You have my blessing (just what you were waiting for, I’m sure!).
(I too recall the post with pictures of your house.)
Of Course, you could ask yourself other economics questions as to whether this purchase will affect your retirement potential, ability to serve full-time missions later in life, college savings plans for your children. How many exra years will you have to work to pay off your home with this change? Or has your home increased sufficiently in value and your financial status changed enough to switch to a 15 year loan?
Julie,
I say buy the house. Real Estate in Texas is so cheap that I doubt that your mortgage will be going up that much. In my ward 3300 sqft would average 180K to maybe 230K. The 230K house would have granite countertops, wood floors etc. When you put the cost of housing around here in perspective compared to other places in the country your sense of guilt should dissipate a bit about the cost. Your 3300 sqft mansion is cheaper then 1300 sqft starter homes in many parts of the country. Plus as a professional your hubby makes as much money as professionals in other more expensive markets The downside is no real appreciation in prices. I remain shocked at how rapidly home prices have appreciated in many markets and smile as our area fills up with young LDS “economic refugees” who flock here to start families. Our ward is so attractive to young LDS families that our ward boundaries are literally just 3 complete subdivisions and small parts of 2 others. In my subdivision there is an LDS family on almost every street. No kidding.
We recently went from a 2000 sqft house to a 3300 sqft house after our twins were born. Now the twins can actually nap when we are all home. Lots to be said about that. Plus if and when we decide to have a 5th child we have 6 bedrooms so we are good to go even if we have another multiple birth.
Definitely, Julie, you need more space. You NEED it. So do those women in Africa who live in a one room hut. The fact that others don’t have it doesn’t mean they don’t need it.
Your life will be more peaceful and you will be better able to serve the Lord and your fellow woman, your kids will be happier. It’s a good thing. Go for it.
We had seven kids but only one bathroom. Our standard joke was “we can’t wait until all the kids are grown and gone so that we will finally be able to afford that second bathroom we’ve always needed.” The kids are all grown, but we still have one bathroom. And no air conditioning. And two mortgages. Gee, Julie, thanks for posting this thread and giving me a reason to get all depressed! :-)
“Some families run a business out of their home. You can’t expect that to not take up any more space than a family would need that isn’t running a business out of their home.”
That’s a good one.
Some families are overweight. You can’t expect that to not take up any more space than a family would need that isn’t overweight.
Some families train olympic gymnasts in their home. You can’t expect that to not take up any more space than a family would need that isn’t training olympic gymnasts at home.
Some families…well, you get the picture. If anyone needs an excuse to buy a bigger house let me know and I’ll cook up some good ones. There are a lot of needs out there currently not being met and I aim to put an end to it!
Making kids share a bedroom is good preparation for life in the Navy. You could have them sleep in the same rack on different watches, using a “hot bunking” procedure. Also, I would recommend installing Klaxons around the house.
I have this conversation in my head too–constantly–sometimes one side is winning, sometimes the other. And I feel GUILTY! no matter which side is winning. I know people who have less–do we really need more?
And I have an oldest son just like Kristine–he collects stuff, and really wants his own room–and have that debate with the same arguments in my head too.
My argument extends to new furniture, new clothes, etc, etc…I really hope I’ll find a peaceful answer someday.
Julie:
Thinking about it, you could buy 3 houses if you didn’t buy your books , and used the library instead!
PS- I have no idea if you buy all these or check them out, I am just kidding, and wanted to advertise my favorite website in the bloggernacle…
Matt W,
You stinker. I’ll have you know that I buy all of my books, but then I resell them unless they are LDS or Biblical Studies topics (because I think I might use them for reference some day).
If the prices in TX are described as above, and the critical voice in Julie’s head proves to be right… I’m going to hell for choosing to live in SoCal.
We’re living in a 1200 sq. ft. condo that cost us 280k and are looking at moving up to a 2200 sq. ft. home that will likely cost us about 400k. Oh well.
By the way, who is Madame Blueberry that I should know her? Someone I’d know if I dedicated half my living space to keeping books?
Julie,
Just make sure that your self realizes that the national housing market is slumping right now (though I’m not sure how the Austin market is doing). There are risks in buying in a falling market. In particular, you should probably avoid boom housing (the new subdivisions full of cookie-cutter houses that spring up in a housing boom) because they tend to deflate the fastest.
Spoken like a true San Diegan.
I thought what my house lacked was furniture.
Now I realize that it’s klaxons.
ryan, where in socal are you finding a 2200sf home for only 400k?! further inland?
we’re in socal, too. 650sf house with baby three due any time. sigh. and our rent is probably more than your mortgage, julie! i felt really whiny about it till i discovered new friends at church lived in a similar home with their four kids. mine are all the same gender and way to close in age. they have two older boys, a younger girl, and a new (male) baby. egads!
one thing to consider about the 3300sf home… how much extra money will it cost to heat, cool, clean, maintain, and so on?
i used to think we could never live in less than 1800sf. holy cow, i was spoiled! i’d kill to have susan or ryan’s 1200sf places!
The 3300 sq ft house is listed for 180K.
Kaimi, I don’t think Austin is in for the softening the rest of the nation is likely to see, but since we don’t plan to move again for 20 or so years, I don’t mind a downtick in value–still less of a pain than waiting a year or two and trying to move with a tiny baby. Good to hear from you, by the way.
gst: Madame Blueberry is from Veggie Tales; she’s known for wanting much more stuff.
a random me: good point.
PS to gst: My five year old IS a klaxon.
Kaimi,
Home prices are so low in TX that we are essentially immune from a housing slump. There has been no real appreciation here at all.
Example. My first TX house. 2000 SQFT sold new in 1997 for 116K. I bought in 2001 for 125K and sold in 2006 for 132K. All in a great school district
TX is not a good place to do 0 money down or interest only loans because ther lack of appreciation makes it difficult to turn a profit if you sell within a 10 year period.
Melissa and I watch “Flip that house” on TLC and laugh at the absolute pieces of junk that get bought for 400K and flipped for 550K in SoCal. Those houses would literally be around 80-100K post flip in our ward and would be considered poor housing stock.
I wonder how often these conversations result in deciding to stay in the smaller home, drive the old car etc. I have no idea if this is the case with Julie in Austin, but to me such conversations often appear to be part of a some sort of bourgeois cleansing ritual designed to assure a person that their moral values are still intact before doing what they want to do–the equivalent of securing an indulgence before the sin. Easy for me to say, my wife, daughter and I live in a three bedroom home:)
As you’re talking about the next 20 years: think about the fact your children will soon become teenagers, you will have great use for more space. Their clothes will take up more room in closets and bureaus because each piece will be much larger. You will want to have them bring their friends over to hang out at your house–you’ll want to serve massive amounts of food and have places for young people to sit or lounge, to play musical instruments or practice in small singing group, watch movies. Each will have his own library of books, sports equipment, science fair projects, and site-specific artwork. My 12-year-old is taller than me. How much room will it take to house you and four or five men? Invite the priest’s quorum to your house on some context (scriptures and ice-cream?) and see how much space they fill.
The bloggernacle is short of parents with teenagers. Find such parents and ask them.
“…such conversations often appear to be part of a some sort of bourgeois cleansing ritual designed to assure a person that their moral values are still intact before doing what they want to do–the equivalent of securing an indulgence before the sin.”
I have, on a few occasions, actually managed to talk myself into taking more Nibleyesque routes in life through such internal conversations. Moreover, our whole family has collectively done so a few times as well. (Right now, we’re trying to commit ourselves to The Compact.) But for the most part, Mathew, your comment describes me very well: if I’m already tempted by the All-New Must-Have Perfectly-Justifiable How-Could-I-Live-Without-It Creature Comfort, then usually it’s all over but for the obligatory hand-wringing.
I’ve lived in a 650 sq ft house with two toddlers and a baby. I’d much rather be doing that than living in our current 1200 sq ft apartment with three teenagers. Teenagers are adult size. And with a house you have somewhere outside to store stuff like surfboards, bikes, snowboards, skateboards. Those things are all in our living room. Driving me crazy.
It’s interesting to me that we seem to avoid meditating on Jesus’ explicit teachings when contemplating these issues (We Presbyterians are as guilty of this as anyone). It’s as if we think we know where Jesus’ teaching on needs and happiness will lead us, and we’re convinced in advance that either we don’t want to go there or that the teaching is not relevant to every day life. Is there room for one who is poor in spirit (and hence, according to Jesus, happy) to make wise use of wealth and power? What is the relationship between wealth on the one hand and mourning and meekness on the other? Perhaps we should let Jesus speak a little more directly in this in head conversation.
I appreciate your comment, Matthew. I’d kind of hoped for at least as much criticism of our plan to move as support for it. I didn’t intend for the post to be a call for support–I am genuinely conflicted about this.
Craig V, I hear you. But I also hear Johnna Cornett: one of my jobs as a mother is to create a nest that will be a comfortable, happy place for my family. I don’t live in the kind of house teens would want to hang out it–especially since at the rate we’re going, we’ll have four of them in one 10 by 10 bedroom.
Maybe you aren’t responsible for your purchasing decisions: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/science/16tier.html
Johnna Cornett is certainly correct. Do we, however, know what it means to create a happy place? What does one look like? I remember the last time I took my family to Disneyland. At the end of the day I was resting near the exit when I saw a family of four that looked like they had just been through a war. The children were in tears and the parents seemed exhausted. Over the loud speaker the refrain kept playing “Disneyland, the happiest place in the world!”.
bbell,
Where in the Dallas area do you live? I’m closer to downtown, and my $200K gets me about 1600 sqft. I’m willing to move out to the suburbs to get a bigger house, though, because we’re busting out of the seams. Then again, I’d have to drive farther to work everyday, and I’m prone to the road rage (I want drivers to improve, and no one is going to learn their driving behavior is bad unless I let them know by using my horn). Plus, I’d spend more money on gas. And there’d be a bigger time committment away from my family; I’d instead be spending it with the kind folks on the 75. But then again, I’d probably not have a big calling like I do in my small struggling ward if I moved out to the wards you’re describing farther north. So that would free up some time.
Now I’m having a debate in my head.
jimbob,
I live over in Keller/North Fort Worth in the Keller School District. Its even cheaper a bit further north of me. Just south of 114 and west of the much more expensive Grapevine/Southlake area in the exemplary Northwest school district is pretty dirt cheap depending on the subdivision. Like $55 a sqft. But your commute would be pretty long and your ward would split every 2 years and you would never have a calling…..
Northern Suburbs of Dallas up 75 are more expensive then my area as well.
Re #15, you need to do sear your conscience with a hot iron. (An old saying from my missionary days (g).)
As far as some of us are concerned, you already are in hell.
180k?! oh, my, i just fainted. maybe, maybe you could find a one bedroom condo in a really bad part of town for that little… but even then, probably not. our 650sf rental started at $2100 a month, though we were lucky to get a drop in price a couple of months ago.
susan m, i guess using the term “house” is deceitful. we really have no storage except what’s inside. we have managed to store a few things on the side of the house, but they’re free for anyone to take, so we limit what gets put there. we got rid of a TON of stuff when moving here and the surfboards and the likes were one of the first things to go. we just don’t have the room (though i did used to keep them in the family room, pre-marriage). we decided to rent a 4’x10′ storage space two months ago, but couldn’t find one nearby that was less than about $140 a month, so we balked.
anyway, our house used to be part of the “house” that’s next door. they took our separate two car garage and built upwards to rent that out to someone else. the same guy owns four units all in a row and we total 2000sf and have a common backyard without any fencing. sucks.
Says the guy who lives in New York City…(insert large, smiley emoticon)
Buy the bigger house.
Our 2-bedroom condo on the San Fran peninsula is 1050 sq ft. Even though we only use it for the summer, as our 2 kids grow, it’s getting more and more crowded (and soon we’ll have to do some kind of curtain thing because we have a boy and a girl who share a room). Right now, we’re overseas and have a 3 bedroom place, but when we move back? whoo boy. I know what what Susan M means when she talks about feeling crowded!
Our friends just relocated to Dripping Springs right outside Austin. They are also from the Bay Area in California and it was like, hmm, spend every penny we have for a little place in No. Cal., or pay a small amount for a 4 bedroom place with a pool in TX?
Buy the bigger house. It will make your family feel more at peace in the long run.
Johnna’s point is, as usual, very good. But I’ve found that our happiness in a home is more directly related to the amount of stuff we have in the space than the space itself. I felt quite comfortable in a 900 sq ft apartment with our family of four when we had very little extra stuff. And whether we have a garden or not is a huge factor. Gardens make me happy, even if they’re tiny. I do think children should have their own rooms if they want to (even though our boys have shared rooms almost all their lives), but we had a four-bedroom 1500 sq ft house and that worked quite nicely. In fact, that house and garden was just about perfect for us.
I don’t think (at least I hope not) we’ll ever choose to buy the bigger house. I can’t justify all those buts. Even though buying the smaller house really won’t make a difference to any person in any place around the world. And even though I don’t care what anyone else buys.
My son BEGS me for someone to share his room. Why is he the only one in the family who has to sleep alone? He feels alone. (He gets all blinky about it). Maybe could I possibly give him a brother so that he could have someone to share a room with?
I feel bad about it. It comes up at least once a week. I let him have sleepovers with his sister/or sisters. And when a guest comes he moves, or the girls move, or he gets to share the room with the guest (depending on the guest & # of guests).
He’s just not ever going to be happy about his lonely room.
bbell — Which is the nearest high school? Keller, Central, or Fossil Ridge?
[queuno, A fellow Keller-ite…]
Regarding home prices in Texas, I bought my first home about a decade ago (DFW area), a small four-bedroom (1800sf) for $110K. It would probably go for about $140K-$150K today.
We have friends moving into the 3500sf mansions, but we haven’t moved yet — one excuse being that my wife and I can’t jointly agree on where we want to move. We could stay where we are, certainly. There will be a stake center in our city within 6 years (if the Church ever builds a Ft. Worth temple, the location likely would be very close). Family spacing and gender order what it is, we’ve opted to give the kids their own rooms for now (after a certain age, I’m not putting boys and girls together and you have to be careful putting babies in with other children), making the rest of the space tight.
We could have upsized a few years ago, but we’ve opted to stay where we are because, for now, “it meets our needs” and we’d rather go on frequent and interesting vacations than be house-poor.
I want to point out to jimbob that I live in NE Tarrant County, near bbell, and I work in downtown Dallas. My commute is 38 miles — and I typically make it in about 45-50 minutes if I plan my departure time accordingly. I’ve been doing that almost 5 years and I find I get a lot of work done in the commutes (including mentally write my priesthood lessons). The commute isn’t too bad.
Erica,
I agree with you about ‘stuff.’ We don’t have much stuff. What we are really after are rooms with doors. One bedroom per kid, plus a study with a door, plus a reading/music room with door. I’d be fine with those being microscopic rooms in a 1500 sq ft house, but it seems like all the houses are huge rooms, open floor plans. To get the # of rooms we want, I am only finding 2400+ sq ft houses.
Anyone know how hard/expensive it would be to add a wall or two or five to an existing house? A lot of these houses are FROGs (i.e., family room over garage) with an open game room the size of a garage–seems like we could carve that into 2-3 rooms . . .
If you can afford to move to a bigger house, hand wringing about others aside, you might consider if there aren’t other things you can do with the money that will be of greater benefit to you and you family. What if you sat down and asked you kids if they would rather have their own rooms or take a nice vacation every year. I wonder what they would say. What if you decided to put the money in a 529 Plan. What if you asked around to see if there was a woman in your stake paying usurious rates on a loan that she couldn’t get out from under.
I wonder if the decision to buy a larger home would be happiness maximizing for your family. If included in the decision, your children might be more enthusiastic about any of the things I’ve mentioned above than having their own room. Then again, they may not be. Since you want to get a bigger house, at least in part, for them, it makes sense to include them in the decision making process–even if the decision will ultimately be made by you.
“Anyone know how hard/expensive it would be to add a wall or two or five to an existing house?”
I’ve never done it, but I’ve seen it done often enough to know that, once you have the materials on hand, it isn’t terribly difficult. In our four bedroom house, we have a room, Megan has a room, the next two girls share a room, and the baby has a room. Megan’s is small room downstairs, right off of the staircase, and it has no windows. We do, however, have a fairly large play room. Melissa plan is, once the younger girls age enough that we don’t need all that play space for toys, we’ll divide the play room in half by building a wall, make that the oldest child’s room (with a window), and turn the other room into an office.
Julie,
Plan on having three more kids instead of one—that ought to assuage the guilt. And after you’ve moved in to your 3300 sq ft house you’ll likely come up with a number of good excuses for not having the two extra kids. See?
My plan is: as the kids leave the nest walls will come down to make room for a growing model railroad empire.
If you do end up throwing up walls in a really small house, just keep in mind that you will probably have to knock those walls back down again if you ever need to resell it. People don’t like lots of tiny rooms in small houses – rabbit warren and all that… In terms of taking care of your housing investment, you would probably be devaluing your home. Normally, the more bedrooms, the more the home is worth, but not if they are all pocket size and the home ends up feeling more cramped than it should. Homes like that are hard to sell unless you are in a hot market.
Queuno, when you wrote “we’d rather go on frequent and interesting vacations” it reminded me of a story told by Marion D. Hanks in Leon Hartshorn’s “Outstanding stories by General Authorities”
It’s entitled “Boy, We Really Have a Swell Bathroom, Haven’t We?” on page 107.
One man tells another “You folks ought to take up skiing like our family and have fun the year round.”
“Doesn’t that get pretty expensive?”
“It’s funny. We live in an old-fashioned house — legs on the tub, that sort of thing. For years we’ve been saving up to have the bathroom done over. But every winter we take the money out of the bank and go on a couple of family skiing trips. Our oldest boy is in the army now, and he often mentions in his letters what a great time we had on those trips. You know, I can’t imagine his writing home, ‘Boy, we really have a swell bathroom, haven’t we?'”
Ditch the books. I did, and I haven\’t looked back.
Look for older homes (if any exist). Smaller rooms, better built, and designed for larger families than today. Plus they look better.
Homeschooling = can really use one more room than other families, ceteris paribus.
All that said, we made do for a while in a three bedroom (really 2 bedrooms and a glorified closet), 950 sq. ft. rental with four kids, and homeschooling. 2400 sq. ft. would have been an unimaginable luxury then. Of course, now that we\’re in my wife\’s dream house, my perspective has changed somewhat.
Our little four bedroom home was totally our design. We found a builder who did whatever we wanted even in a small home. Our dream floorplan is 1800 sq ft with 4 bedrooms, plus an unfinished basement for additional bedrooms if more children ever join our family. I think unfinished basements are a great investment. They’re cheap to build in the first place and you can finish it as you need it. Of course they’re not available everywhere though. And it is nice to have an extra room if you’re homeschooling.
And the rabbit warren. Some relatives of mine had 12 children and kept throwing up walls here and there. It took a very long time to sell that house, particularly since some bedrooms could only be accessed through another bedroom.
I just can’t imagine having to keep a 3300 sq ft home clean. That’s not my idea of fun even if I was terribly organized about it.
we were just discussing that tonight, bookslinger. my kid sister has the opportunity to go to hong kong for two weeks for the outrageous price of… airfare! $1300 and she gets the experience of a lifetime (well, for her, at least) and she’s hemming and hawing over it.
when we lived overseas, we spent a lot of saved money travelling. whenever i get bummed about that missing money, i think about the memories… if i were to ever lose my husband (a daily reality with his job), i’d never, ever regret that money spent.
I had the same conversation running through my head when we went from 1100 sf (4 kids) to 4000 sf (and now six kids). But now we have a home office so my husband can work from home more, and we still make our kids share rooms even though we have 7 bedrooms, in order that we can house guests and family who need a place to stay to get on their feet. We had my brother’s family live with us, and dh’s brother’s family family live with us (each for a year at a time), and we hosted a family reunion and housed 54 people for four days, along with myriad long-term guests or guests with large families, and even spillover guests for my neighbor’s yearly family reunions. Even though I still feel pangs of guilt about having so much room, we have consecrated some of it at times and as our kids grow they and their friends know there is always room at our house for the parties, sleepovers, etc.
Get the house.
“Ditch the books. I did, and I haven’t looked back.”
Bryce, that is blasphemy. Repent.
Also, I agree with those who ask the question of just how to best use money to build up family attachments/memories/what-have-you. My parents have built and live in a sprawling cabin, almost a lodge; it’s far, far more space then they’d ever use. But then, when the whole family gets together we’re already close to 50 in number, and still growing; believe me, that space comes in handy. On the other hand, for our part, one of the reasons we bought the home we did was because we determined that our monthly mortgage payment would not go over a certain amount–there were too many other things, like travel, that we wanted to save for. Of course, we ended up being able to get a four bedroom, three bathroom home anyway, and it’s where we wanted it to be, so I wouldn’t say we had to compromise on our goals too much.
Queno,
I am in PG2 in the Hurst stake (Central HS) along with M (another commentator who was a seminary student of mine. Yes I am proud of her) when she is home from the ivy league. We probably have mutual friends. Are you in Keller 1 or 2?
I think NE Tarrant county is the place to be a large SAHM LDS family. Home prices are so cheap and the schools so good its like a magnet for LDS young couples. We intentionally moved here from Chicago. A common occurance is for one family member to move here and then for other family members to come and visit see how far their housing dollars will stretch and also move here. We are also getting lots of California saints fleeing CA as well. In fact my street is 50% CA transplants.
Jimbob’s commute will be pretty long to get downtown but you seem to handle it OK.
Actually, bbell, I’ve talked to my employer about working from home so as to alleviate a commute altogether. His response was that he’d try to work with me, but that the rest of the janitors were more productive at the physical location of the company because that’s where the cleaning normally takes place. I’ll let you know.
Julie
Here’s your solution — go for a slightly bigger home, but plan on spending as for a way bigger home al la the Not So Big House philosophy.
1) Avoid tract/cookie cutter floor plans
2) Plan on working with an architect to get a house that works for your family. You’ll spend more for the services, but get more out of the sq footage you end up with.
3) Spend for quality, not quantity.
4) Lose the rooms you never use [i.e. formal dining rooms — ours was always the place-where-paper-went-to-die]
5) You could even do this and not move from where you are [assuming you like the neighborhood]
6) Or buy land. Or buy a fixer-upper in your dream neighborhood.
About rooms vs. open-plan. It depends on the era of the housing stock, doesn\’t it? We live in the DC area and in our neighborhood 90% of the houses are 1930s or 40s brick cape cods or colonials — about 1200 sq ft and three bedrooms (1 of which is good for nothing except a desk or a crib), 1 or 2 baths. Even our kitchen has a (swinging) door. I\’d love to bust down a wall or two, but then it would be immediately apparent how tiny the house is…
What you need, Julie, is a big old sprawling Victorian with lots of nooks and crannies. Even better if you could restore it from a state of gross disrepair — then you\’d be doing a service to the community, which would allay your conscience about the size…
Keep in mind a house is a financial investment in a way that vacations and cars (and furnishings) aren’t: even in slumping housing cycles, houses rarely depreciate. Also, neighborhood is a huge factor from an investment perspective: if the bigger house is in a better neighborhood where house prices are more likely to appreciately, you may actually be making money in buying the bigger house.
(Here’s an easy way to think of the investment aspect: if your house appreciates at exactly the same rate as your after-tax mortage rate, it essentially costs you no more to live in a big house than a small house–the investment aspect of your house will pay for the mortgage expense. This is just a very first-cut way to think of it. Other costs of owning a big home include higher property taxes, usually more money spent on furnishings, the cost–and headache!–of moving, and the “investment opportunity cost” of coming up with more money for a downpayment. On the other hand, bigger and more expensive homes are often more likely to appreciate in value faster than smaller and less expensive homes, though I think this more true in appreciating markets than slumping ones–also, repair and maintenance costs can vary a lot depending on how old or new the home is, and I would second the comment about renovating typically being a house-devaluing undertaking….)
I won’t wade into the the moral issues, but (especially since you’re such a voracious reader, Julie) let me suggest some books that might inform your house hunt. (In my opinion, its strange that we often read books about child rearing, religion, education, food, travel, etc., but not so much about design and architecture.)
Rybczynski, Home: The Short History of an Idea
Rybczynski, Looking Around: A Journey Through Architecture
Le Corbusier, Toward a New Architecture
Tom Wolfe, From Bauhaus to Our House
In case it helps, if you were fostering or adopting, you would be required to have no more than two children per bedroom. And if you’re using that third bedroom as a playroom/book room, it’s really more of a living space than a bedroom and should be counted as such!
We recently moved from Los Angeles, California (1460 sq. ft. condo/apartment with 3 small bedrooms and 2 smallish bathrooms) to Sandy, Utah (3200 sq. ft. rambler built in 1977 with 5 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms). We have 4 kids (3 girls, 1 boy). We considered most, if not all, of the issues that have been discussed with respect to the needs vs. wants of our family and its individuals for more space and the implications of our decision to allocate our economic resources to the home we chose, but one thing we also considered, and that has made me feel great about our decision, is the way in which we’ve been able to use our home to frequently host gatherings of family and friends. Both my wife and I are the most “established” of our siblings, and now that we have an extra bedroom and a big dining room, we can offer a place to crash and a space to gather for everyone living here or visiting from out of town. It has been really gratifying to be able to provide hub (even though we’ve been doing a lot of dishes), and the increased association with extended family and friends has enriched our lives and the lives of our children. Obviously, much of that has more to do with geography than house size (I like to think people would still have accepted dinner invitations if we had bought a 1460 sq. ft. home here), but the house has made it easier and more comfortable for people to linger longer, to wander from one conversation to another, to kick a soccer ball in the back yard for a while, or to steal away for a nap between conference sessions in the spare bedroom. It’s very pleasing to sit back and watch my family and friends interact and spend time happily together in my home, and it’s hard for me in those moments to entertain the possibility that I’m being unrighteously indulgent.
Just make sure the house you buy is well-built.
Seriously, that’s my only advice. Our house was built on the cheap (by a company that emphasizes square footage, and only square footage, and by the way did you know we have lots and lots of square footage! Do not look at the mislaid tile in the kitchen or the corners that do not square up, for they are not relevant to the square footage…) It’s probably twice as big as our previous house (built in 1918 using real wood — they even hand-carved the railing on the stairs. And there are pocket doors everywhere.) The old house had 1927 electric wiring (with the gas lines still in the walls: my bedroom light fixture was converted from a gas fixture,) just one bathroom for five people (four females) and we were only halfway through restoring it when we moved, but hardly a day goes by when we don’t long for it. Even though living there meant that I could never visit while I was living in the dorms, we all had to drive 75 miles away to do much of anything not having to do with our branch or the mall, and in town teens could only get true minimum wage jobs.
So make sure it’s well-built, because in the end, you can always hide out on the roof of the porch if you need personal space, but having to rip out all of your archways and tear down half-ways and still look around and mutter “geez, did they build this house using stoned high school kids as materials buyers and supervisors??” gets old very, very quickly.
On the “swell bathroom” subtopic: our [the kids] favorite house to date — I count 17 that I lived in before the age of 20 — was in Connecticut, was about 2200 sq ft., built in the 1960s, in a real neighborhood, etc., but the key feature was the huge and already-developed backyard. We got more “physics study” use out of the clothes line that was strung from the second floor balcony to the top branches of a tree across the yard, than any of us did from books. And my sisters and I learned all about forced labor when we cleared the leaves out of the once-defunct pond/spring system (it took three or four months, because the leaves kept coming.) We also found out what happens when the pond system that hasn’t been functioning for twenty years, turns out to be the start of a three-property stream that your neighbors hadn’t known about when they bought their houses… ahem. Fortunately, it didn’t take much to clear out the stream bed and eliminate the flooding. We only had 1.5 bathrooms/4 small bedrooms, and also had my step-grandmother living with us, but that house worked out well. And all homeschooling book-work was confined to the bar area the last owners had installed in the basement.
(if you really must feel guilty, let me at least tell you about our friends in Texas, who had a large swimming pool, double tennis courts, what looked to 9-year-old eyes as an actual mansion, and their own private beach and dock on a large lake… and their two boys only liked playing in the mud. My sisters and I got more use out of their tennis courts one summer, than their own kids did.)
Coming late to the discussion….
I second the mentioning of the possibility of a home being a possible investment.
I also am a bit confused, if Julie’s concerns are about the moral issues of needs vs. wants, what the difference is between having a larger home and taking fancy vacations? I tend to think we shouldn’t necessarily berate ourselves for considering either more living space or wanting experiences and memories with our families, although I struggle with all the same issues Julie brought up (as I sit in our 3000 square foot house that we felt guided to find (in a market that has since appreciated significantly)…that feeling of “this is a blessing” adds a whole dimension to the conversation that I often have in my head (“should I feel guilty?”) even as we aren’t in the mode of change because we want to retire in this house. We have space for visitors, gatherings, etc…we have had three different family members live with us and save up money by so doing…I just feel there have been many blessings of having the extra space, but I ramble… ).
I do find it interesting that there is often guilt or morality brought into a discussion when someone wants to get a new house (and it’s easy to judge someone who has a “big house” because somehow that can be perceive as an extravagance), but what’s the difference in principle if someone lives in a smaller house and spends what could have been mortgaged on a nice vacation or other “experiences”? Don’t the same potential moral issues (needs vs. wants) arise there?
More questions that I think are relevant to the original post: How are we really supposed to define what our “needs” are? If there are people whose needs really are as basic as staying alive via food and warm and dry via some sort of rudimentary shelter, does that mean all should be reduced to those basic levels to define what “needs” are? Or is it possible to have needs include where to put the books, or the piano, or the office, or the guest room, or the entertaining/gathering space, or…. I think that there is a metaissue here beyond “should I buy the house” that I would love to hear more discussion about. I’m sure there are as many points of view as there are people, but I’m interested nonetheless.
we don’t exactly do “fancy” vacations. but the vacations we take are enriching to our lives, whether by connecting with nature or another culture.
on the topic of being able to entertain, that’s what i miss most. before this 650sf heap, we had 2400sf. we were able to house family when visiting, help out friends and neighbors, fellowship, and just have a fun haven for others. not any more!
man, i wish my husband would move to utah or idaho. the cost of living just astounds me and he could do close to the same type of work (same job, different environment). i need to get him up to visit his sister in holladay so he can see for himself…
70…sorry…didn’t mean to generalize about the types of vacations…more just a general question. Because of health issues, travel is not something that appeals to me or fits well into our lives, so I guess we each do what works.
And where one lives certainly does make a difference in what amount of house can be owned. :) We moved from a very expensive place to a more moderate place. We ended up paying a lot less monthly for a mortgage on this house than on rent for an 1100 sf, 2 bd apartment. Even after a refi to a 15 year mortgage, our payment is less than it was in rent years ago (I’m sure rent would be higher now)…it went up 100 bucks in one year for us. It’s all relative to a degree.
[This is inside baseball for those of us that live in the DFW area, but the area in North Fort Worth-Keller school district has a new ward as of tonight — the Woodland Springs Ward. bbell mentioned all the wards in our area that split every two years and it’s hard to give everyone a meaningful calling. This new ward helps. It covers an area about 16 square miles and has upon creation about 350 members, with plenty of space for more growth.
Ya’ll keep moving in; we’ll keep building houses.]
Queno,
My in laws are in that ward. I give that ward 18 months till it splits again. The potential for growth is HUGE…… My ward PG2 is pretty much built out now but they are still moving in from out of state like crazy. Another funny anecdote. We had three families with the LDS ethnic name Larson move in last year from Utah. The migration from Utah continues…..
By the way the pond in front of the First Texas Model homes in woodland springs has been stocked with Bass. One night my kids and I caught 25 of them no lie.
Problem is, bbell, if they keep splitting wards, they’ll have to have a new stake soon…
Queuno,
I think that the PG1 and PG2 wards would be left in the Hurst Stake when the new stake is formed. Probably 2 years out. There is a stake center being built right now in Haslet. Hurst would be in deep trouble without the PG wards. The demographic reality is that south of 820 and east of 377 in HEB, Birdville and the Fort Worth ISD’s is not fertile ground for LDS families for about 10 years now.