Our theology–or, more accurately, our perception of it–helps to determine our response to mental illness. Consequently, we must ensure our unexamined religious assumptions do not rob us of compassion or persuade us to premature and unwarranted judgment. Let me give some examples.
Sometimes our theology helps us treat the mentally ill with special kindness. In my experience, for instance, church members treat those with Down Syndrome quite tenderly. This may be in part because we believe those with pronounced congenital mental handicaps were more valiant in the premortal existence and are already secured a place in the Celestial Kingdom–associating with them allows us a taste of the divine.
Matters, however, are murkier with respect to the clinically depressed.
For reasons I will explore in a moment, the depressed, even in the Church, are often ashamed of their affliction–rather like lepers of old. This is both tragic and ironic because those who most need empathy sometimes find themselves even sadder because of the treatment they receive from those who should, and often want to, help. I think, for instance, of a well-meaning church member who tells a clinically-depressed friend: “oh, just cheer up.” The intent, of course, is noble; the effect, however, may be to elicit guilt, frustration, and withdrawal.
Part of the problem, I think, is that our desire to help sometimes outstrips our knowledge. If each of us were completely transparent, I think we would find that many Church members do not believe in clinical depression. That is, many of us still believe emotional state is always a matter of choice–“clinical depression” may make it harder to be happy, but happiness is still a personal decision. Many years of medical research, however, indicate this is not the case. Just as there are some folks with thin blood, or missing limbs, or weak hearts, or fatty livers, there are some people whose biochemical makeup prevents them from being happy. For them, the idea of “just perk up” is rather like the idea of a lame man “just jumping up.”
In fairness, these are difficult issues with no easy answers one way or the other. Mental illness is complex precisely because it lies at the intersection of the physical and the mental–almost, we seem to think, at the intersection of the physical and the spiritual. We have, for the most part, abandoned the idea that physical illness follows sin. We have not, however, been able to leave behind the idea that there is some connection between mental illness and personal righteousness; this may be because mental state is too closely connected to that place inside of us where accountability lies–the two realms are not easily separated.
Despite the thorny intellectual and philosophical thicket which surrounds mental illness, however, I would suggest that the best course of action is to err on the side of compassion and empathy. We need to strive, as individuals and as a Church, to assure that these people know we do not think anything is “wrong” with them, that we do not think their affliction is their fault, and that they are welcome and loved among us. It is true that, in some instances, we may be wrong. The scriptures do teach that, in some cases, misery follows wickedness and there are probably some people who feel depressed as a consequence for wrong decisions–even then, though, don’t those folks need mercy and compassion even more than those who are ill? Furthermore, we ought to remember that, just as financial blessings do not always follow righteous living, temporal happiness sometimes eludes even the most valiant. The Savior, after all, was also “a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.” Sometimes grief follows wickedness, but sometimes it follows righteousness. Especially when dealing with the mentally ill, we would probably do well to assume the latter.
The second-most downloaded talk of all-time on BYU Broadcasting’s website is “Christ-Centered Healing from Depression and Low Self-Worth.” I think that this is at least some evidence that Latter-day Saints are interested in this issue, but it is a stigmatized topic – and not just among Latter-day Saints.
But I think that you are quite right to point out that LDS theology potentially provides quivers for the Adversary, doctrines that could be twisted to reinforce these stigmas. For example, we believe that “hope” (antithetical to depression?) comes of faith (Ether 12:4), so a persistent state characterized by unremittent “hopelessness” may be perceived by outsiders as “faithlessness.” Additionally, as you alluded, “wickedness never was happiness” (Alma 41:10) so it’s not a tough judgmental leap to conclude that someone’s unhappiness is a result of their wickedness.
What’s the most downloaded?
“Just as their are some folks with thin blood, or missing limbs, or weak hearts, or fatty livers, there are some people whose biochemical makeup prevents them from being happy.�
Not true, Tyler. It is only a theory, and a highly speculative one at that. We are far from ascertaining any specific biochemical makeup that necessarily prevents someone from being happy. Whatever biological conditions exist in unhappy people, mirroring conditions have been found in people who are quite happy.
Unfortunately, the most downloaded talk of all time is – and be ready to fall out of your seat – John Bytheway, “The Best Three Hours of the Week: Getting the Most From Your Sunday Meetings.” So I guess Latter-day Saints struggle with depression, and boredom at Church meetings. Maybe the two are related????
Hilarious! Thanks, I needed that laugh.
Great post.
But since when is Down Syndrome a mental illness?
The phrase “mental illness” conjures up different images for me than most people, I think. Depression is not the first thing that comes to my mind. Or even bi-polar disorder. Growing up with a sister who was a paranoid schizophrenic gave me a different perspective I guess. She was a classic case–she had all kinds of delusions, saw and heard things that were not there, she dressed funny, cut her hair weird, the whole bit. Attempted suicide more than once. She did ok on meds, but she was never capable of living on her own.
We are far from ascertaining any specific biochemical makeup that necessarily prevents someone from being happy.
I would correct that to read ‘We are far from ascertaining any specific biochemical makeup that necessarily prevents everyone from being happy.’
Awhile ago there was a list going around my area that detailed how one feels when the spirit has withdrawn from them. Unfortunately the whole list reads like a checklist for symptoms of depression. The similarity between the two has unfortunately left many people who could benefit from medication convinced that they just aren’t righteous enough, and probably has quite a few taking medication wondering why they aren’t more spiritual.
I really have mixed feelings about this topic. I have lived with a lot of roommates that have had or claimed to have had depression or some other disorder. With a couple of them, there was no doubt in my mind that they really had this problem. However, there were others that I really wondered about. It seemed to me that their poor choices made them depressed. One picked bad boyfriends i.e. they were abusive or the didn’t treat her kindly. Another harbered a lot of bitterness toward a family member and didn’t want to let go of hurt in her life. If I would have made these choices I would have been depressed. (I suppose this could be a chicken or the egg situation–do I make bad choices because I’m depressed or do my bad choices make me depressed.) That roommate when on an anti-depressent and she claimed it make her feel great. However, I don’t think it helped her make better decisions.
I hadn’t noticed Tyler’s reference to Down Syndrome. I think that there are a whole host of terms that different groups prefer to use to self-identify for different categories of what broadly may be termed “mental disabilities.” Some terms that people may be interested in learning:
Mental illnesses may fall under the term “psychiatric disabilities” and people with psychiatric disabilities may prefer to refer to themselves as “mental health consumers” or sometimes as “psychiatric survivors.” Learning disabilities, such as ADHD or others may be referred to as “intellectual disabilities” whereas Down Syndrome may fall under the heading of “cognitive disabilities” or “developmental disabilities.”
Eric,
I’ll be the first to admit that I am no expert as to the biochemical underpinnings of mental illness. Still, I think there is enough evidence to conclude that there is some kind of biochemical basis for mental illness in some people. Otherwise, where does it come from? Does is spring from sin? Do the people want to be unhappy? Do people choose to be bipolar? Please understand, I do not mean to suggest that everyone who is unhappy has biochemical imbalances. In fact, I think most human conditions probably stem from a complex interaction between genetic, biologic, environmental, and personal circumstances. Still, do you really think the idea that clinical depression stems from biochecmial causes is “highly speculative?” I’m honestly curious, I would love to understand the other highly competetive theories.
Susan M,
It is a stretch to include Down Syndrome as a mental illness; maybe it’s even definitionally incorrect, I’m not sure. As you allude to, the spectrum of mentall illness is much wider than depression, though I think clinical depression is probably the most familiar to most people. Schizophrenia, as well, can be frightening and frustrating and brings its own unique challenges–both to the afflicted and to her/his family.
Sheldon,
Thanks, I should be more careful with my teminology.
Tyler,
I don’t think you can really call Down syndrome mental illness. I have found that actual mental illness remains very stigmatized and misunderstood in the church, and society as a whole. It does so because it lies at the intersection of biology, psychology, spirituality, nature and nurture.
I think the disease model (biochemical make-up) is a little oversimplified. Here is a neurologist’s take. People who are depressed typically have overdeveloped certain circuitry in the brain. There is a pathway strengthened by a self critical inner voice. This pathway is connected to stress centers which release hormones that make us feel bad and magnify self loathing. Add a bunch of external stressors and boom, the circuit is dominating mood and cutting off access to more positive feelings. At a certain point, we simply are not capable of cutting off this circuit by ourselves. Antidepressants can be helpful at lowering this signal. However, this is just a temporary fix, what we really need to do (with the volume now turned down on the self-criticism) is work to build a more positive self outlook. This takes work and time. This is closer to the seat of agency and accountability as you pointed out.
Major depression often (80% of the time) coexists with anxiety. I was amazed (and yet not) to learn that anxiety is much more common among the religious. Anxiety is connected to perfectionism and a belief that something not done perfectly is not worth doing at all. It is lot an extraordinary leap to see how religion could feed into this mindset and how this mindset starts strengthening self-critical tendencies.
What really sets me off is those who will take these statistics and in Korihor fashion use them as evidence that religion is now the culprit. I can’t stand reading the accusatory statistics regarding antidepressant use in Utah, for example. This leads to a defensive stigmatization and a never ending cycle. Historically, the depressed have self medicated with alcohol. This really isn’t any better. In fact, it is less effective.
I am convinced that what can help solve this problem is Jesus Christ and the atonement. This is the way to strengthen those alternative brain pathways that say, “Wait a minute, I’m not worthless or hopeless. Change is possible.� Healing can now occur. It behooves us as Christians and Latter day saints, to let this atonement work in others and show compassion rather than judgement for those afflicted. What good does judgement do when self judgement is the root of the problem?
Thank you, Tyler for a very important post on a subject near and dear to my heart.
“Still, I think there is enough evidence to conclude that there is some kind of biochemical basis for mental illness in some people.�
Agreed.
“I think most human conditions probably stem from a complex interaction between genetic, biologic, environmental, and personal circumstances.�
I agree with this one too. What I was referring to as highly speculative was the idea that there is a biological factor that causes depression in all cases. Or, in other words, that there is a purely biological cause. (Which I had inferred from your post that you were claiming.)
I am not trained to comment on Tyler’s use of terminology, categories, or classifications, but I do know that in my ward there are several members with diminished mental and emotional capacities whose condition, I believe, is outside the circle of their control. Some live permanently in this condition; others live in it intermitently. Tyler’s post causes me to ponder not what the limits are for such individuals in terms of influencing their own situations, or whether such situations are just or unjust, but rather whether any part of my religious tradition would cause me to do anything other than offer compassion, service, and love to these people, some of whom are, in the eyes of the world, “the least of these [His] brethren.” I hope not. I think not.
When Jesus was asked, concerning a disabled person, who had sinned to cause the disability, the person or his parents, Jesus answered something like, “neither the blind man nor his parents,” but that “the works of God might be manifest in him.” I think we should strive to have the works of God manifest through us in our relationships with the mentally and emotionally disabled. Not in a demeaning or contrived way, but with full purpose of heart, dignity, and real intent.
I have been having to deal with a relative who is also a co-worker. He appears to be having a problem with depression/anxiety. Unfortunately it affects his work and work relationships. This is very difficult for me to deal with. I have a lot more patience in other areas with people that I do not have to deal with professionally. But trying to empathize and give advice every day becomes quite a burden. Especially when one rarely knows what to say.
He has medication but is hesitant to use it. He does not want to admit the problem. So he waits until things get obviously bad and takes some of his ‘happy pills’ as he calls them for a couple of days. He does not want company leaders to know about his problem, but they suspect I believe. I have to admit I am not as christlike as I should be in this case. I would just like the problem (which I often view as him) to just go away.
While this post was well-intentioned, I wrote it quickly and a bit sloppily, as is clear from some of what I wrote. Let me clarify a few points:
1) As a number of people have pointed out, Down Syndrome is not usually considered a “mental illness.” Mental illness, if it has any biological basis at all, is usually caused by a problem with neurochemistry or neurocircuitry. Down syndrome, on the other hand, is a chromosomal abnormality which involves much more than cognitive function.
2) I did not mean to imply that all mental illness not related to sin has biological origins; in this regard my post was worded too strongly. As far as I understand, there are two main secular camps regarding the origin of mental illness. The camp based on traditional western medicine claims mental illness has a concrete biological basis; consequently, western medical doctors tend to think this problem is often curable through medication or other biological treatment. Psychologists, on the other hand, believe mental illness has psychological, environmental, or interpersonal roots. So, psychologists often treat depression or other mental illness through carefully developed regimens that involve exploring feelings and talking through problems; in addition, many psychologists use forms of behavioral therapy and other methods to attempt to improve behaviors with which a mentally ill person is struggling.
3) As Beeshnkj, Doc, and others have pointed out, I believe healing comes, ultimately, through the atonement. Physical illness teaches us, of course, that healing does not always come during this life; indeed, President Kimball, Elder Maxwell, Lehi, and other Prophets have all taught that suffering can be instructive–sometimes it is an instrument the Lord uses to teach us. Still, healing will come–now or later–through Christ.
4) As Beeshnkj points out, the Gospel and the Atonement help us treat all men with greater kindness and empathy; it is misconceptions, or perhaps cultural currents, which might bring us to do otherwise. Sometimes, of course, misconceptions have a way of masquerading as religious precepts.
5) Finally, both Eric and hk help me to remember that sometimes I (or we) am the one who most needs the blessings of the atonement. Sometimes it can be difficult to love those who suffer from mental illness because they may act in ways that are difficult or hurtful (of course, all of us act that way some of the time and some of us act that way most of the time, but those who suffer with mental illness may find it more difficult to control their behavior in certain circumstances). In the end, as is appropriate, the issue brings all of us back to Christ and the Atonement–all of us need His help.
I must admit, though, I’m sad no one has spoken up who has mental illness–I hope my post, in wording or content, didn’t stifle or discourage such comments. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
As one who has battled depression throughout my adult life, I appreciated the post – but am hesitant to add much to the discussion.
It took me almost 15 years before I sought medical help – and all those years were as a member of the Church. As an adult convert to the Church, I felt I needed to pray more. I only needed to be more faithful. I only needed to be better.
The day before I left the U.S. for a year in South Korea with the Army my wife told me she wanted it to be a trial separation. She loved me, but couldn’t take being around me any more.
I walked in to the Mental Health section of the 121 General Hospital in Seoul and told them I needed to talk to someone. That I wasn’t about to step in front of a bus, but wasn’t sure I’d step out of the way of a bus if it was coming.
After a few weeks adjusting dose (Prozac at that time – I’ve shifted meds a few times since) my wife called to talk with me. She didn’t believe it was me – as she had not heard my voice so cheerful before.
That was 1995. We are still married and I’m a walking, talking advertisement for antidepressants. I still have down times (days?) but nothing like I felt before.
I don’t recall any Latter-day Saints castigating me for lack of faith — it was a burden I largely put on myself. Sometimes I’d hear the people around me talking about how great the Gospel is and wonder how Heavenly Father could have forgotten me. Now I know I need some medication in addition to prayer – and it’s OK.
wilt
In theological terms, living with depression is like being severely tempted by Satan. Who else but your worst adversary would be behind the following thoughts that roll around the depressed person’s brain on a regular basis?
“You’re worthless. You’ve always been miserable and will always be miserable. Nobody cares what happens to you. You don’t deserve to be happy. Everyone would be better off if you killed yourself. That’s the only way the pain will ever stop for you.” If these are not lies told to a depressed person by Satan, I don’t know what is.
Any person struggling with this kind of temptation needs all the Christlike help and support that we can offer him or her.
And whoever first came up with the idea that depression is due to wickedness — that person was speaking foolishly. I wonder how he would explain the existence of kids like me that suffered from depression even before reaching the age of accountability.
I’ll speak up–
For years and years I lived my religion with a sort of obsessive-compulsive bent. I did lots of crazy things–like give up early morning basketball at the stake center for going to the temple three or for times a week. (If I could make the sacrafice of arising early for basketball surely I could do the same for something more “worthy”) I’d go on fasting binges–again three or four times a week. At times I would find myself practically tracting during my day job–courier outfit and all. And like something right out of “Raising Arizona” I would drive by convenient stores in the middle of the night (!) trying to find someone who would take a Book of Mormon off my hands. And all kinds of other silly things.
I did lots of other strange things outside of a purely religious context (which I won’t go into here) which were nontheless contorted because of the over-arching influence of my wildly over-zealous committment to religion.
I finally crashed a little over three years ago. I fell into a horrible depression–which was catalyzed by coming into contact with my father for the first time. I lost all desire for life. My religion became unbearable. The weight of the reality of God was absolutely crushing. The scriptures felt like a knife twisting in my gut–so aweful was the condemnation I read on every page.
Strangely, I felt (and still feel) as if a whole wing in my mind was shut down, as it were. I was released as the adult sunday school teacher (mercifully–I had a wonderful bishop) as I was unable to process the lesson material. I would open the manual and see a bunch of words–unable to pull them together conceptually.
As a composer, I haven’t written a note of music in over three years–though I have manged to do a little arranging. But melody? Nope. The little bird’s gone. It’s as if I have no power of projection–or when I try to project it’s incredibly painful.
I’ve had some incredibly horrific anxiety of different varieties. I’ve been reduced to a sobbing heap by night-terrors. I suffer from sleep paralysis–also frighting as hell, etc. etc..
And what’s at the root of all this? Well, I haven’t put it all together yet. No doubt much of it is due to some of the problems that Doc mentions in his/her comment(#12). But even so, I believe (at this point in the game) that my condition can be traced to problems with nuture more than problems with nature. Yes, I believe there may be a strain of inherited mental illness in the mix, but my guess is that most of the problem has to do with the inordinate psychological pressure that I experienced as a child because of a least to separate cases of sexual abuse and the death-like sorrow induced by mutliple divorces in my immediate family.
So in the end, my crazy religiosity was an effect of dealing with the heavy burden of shame that most children carry because of such abuses–though finally there a came point were I could no longer endure the psychological stress of being so divided, of being someone different from who I really was, of carrying the burdens of codependency and self annihilation.
#7 Starfoxy, I’m glad you made that point. I’ve seen that list from time to time throughout the years and I hate it.
I, too, have struggled with depression all my life. I’m better now. Not what I ought to be or could be or should be, but better.
Recently I’ve made a discovery about my personality that is self defeating. Now that I know my mind works that way, and that it is not normal or healthy, I hope to be able to change it and become a happier person. It’s a learning process for some. But I also have to take very good care of myself physically and take medication. It’s a physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual condition that requires constant work and care.
I’m very open about it in my ward and actually it’s helped others to be open as well. I think a few think I’m crazy, but that’s their problem.
You Mormons have a huge cross to bear. Opppps, you guys dont believe in the “cross.” Sorry about that. I always thought you guys were perfect. Maybe you arent after all? Maybe Joseph expected too much of you? OH WELL, keep sending in 10%. Nothing in this life is free. Sorry for being so Snarkey.
snarkey,
moormuns ain’t purfect, jest furgiv’n.
Hi. Try reading this, given at BYU Education week in 2005, I believe, and there’s a couple others along with it. How Mormons Shoot Their Wounded. Here’s a few more.
There’s also a book, Valley of Sorrows, by Elder Morrison, that is quite good. I post from time to time on my blog about a variety of mental health issues, and especially what my experience is like, in ways that I try to show what the struggle is really like. I try to open a window into living with things like this, to help foster understanding and destigmatization of mental illnesses, and the mentally ill. Sometimes I throw in Mormon perspective into it, but I really just try to show what it is like, because LESS JUDGEMENT would be the best thing, for all concerned, as a first step. And one way to go about that, is to show what it’s like.
I do not relish the challenge of living with my mental illnesses the rest of my life. It has been given to me to know that there are those in life who are to be . . . an opportunity for others to learn.
I wish I wasn’t one of those, because BEING that really sucks. There’s no other way to say it. Now, when I say being an opportunity for others to learn, I certainly don’t see that in a condescending way. I just do my best to try to fulfull whatever positive purpose I might be able to make out of my challenges. But . . . I still wish I wasn’t this opportunity for others to learn to serve others (I don’t feel entitled to any, of course, but since that has been part of what I’ve been given to know . . . I am an opportunity for others to learn compassion, Christ-like love (I wish I wasn’t such a test for that lol), understanding, empathy, learn to not judge, learn to accept people better, learn to love more unconditionally, learn to see opportunities to help, learn about the issues involved, learn to help . . .
I’m afraid by saying all that, that people will think that I think I am entitled. I do not. It does explain, though, why I feel such a strong urge inside to try and illuminate my experience, and mental illness issues, with others. If I can help only one person come to even a slightly better understanding and acceptance of those in my position, then I will be happy.
I love this post by Jeff Lindsey:
http://timesandseasons.org/?p=1228#more-1228
Er, Lindsay with an “a.”
The thing I have learned most during my guest-blogging stint is that, at least in my case, a decent post can ellicit deeply beautiful comments: thank you to those who have written so movingly of their experiences here. As Sarebear has alluded to, hopefully frank discussion of the difficulties of mental illness will help all of us to have more empathy and kindness.
Jack,
One of my dearest friends is a composer. I love music but writing it is far beyond my grasp. I remember, though, watching my friend (he was, for a long time, my roommate), entranced, as he composed. He would play the songs for me afterwords and I would listen, astounded at the beauty that had welled up from somewhere inside his soul. Because this experience dwells so deeply within me, your short comment, “the little’ bird’s gone,” cuts me to the quick. God bless you, I hope things are getting at least a a little better. I hope the bird alights soon.
Hanging in There,
Who but satan, indeed? Depression can be ugly, not just difficult, but dark and ugly.
Annegb,
I have to admit, I had gathered from some of your comments on MH that this might have been one of your struggle–I kind of hoped you might see this and comment. I’m glad you’re open about this with your ward, and I give a hearty amen to this: “It’s a physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual condition that requires constant work and care.” Most importantly, though, I’m glad to hear you’re doing better.
To All,
A few months ago, a fellow in my ward who has long suffered from serious and sometimes debilitating depression gave a watershed talk in sacrament meeting where he spoke of what it is like to be depressed and of things other should and should not do to help. I’d love to hear from anyone, but especially from those who have struggled with mental illness (either personally, with a family member, with a ward member, or in whatever way) about similar topics. I think many of us would like to help, but aren’t sure how.
Tyler-
I spent 6 months with a dear friend who suffered from most forms of clinical depression. The best way I can describe the battle he fought comes from the thirty second chapter of the book of Alma, “O then, is not this real.” In the passage Alma is speaking of spiritual things, but I believe the description also fits my friend’s struggle with depression. I could share details of the experience, but rather I will share what my friend came to know. Simply that Christ truly “hath descended below them all,” and that Christ will succor his people during times of mental illness. Christ’s understanding of mental illness is yet another miraculous level of the already sublime atonement.
On another note, you mentioned some members of the church preach the doctrine “we choose our mood” too often. I agree. I took an institute class which focused on that very doctrine for class periods at a time. I remember thinking it strange that the teacher would spend 40 minutes discussing how to overcome feelings of depression, and then only take 2 minutes to acknowledge that not everyone could implement his suggestions. Those who were clinically depressed likely spent the entire class period feeling more and more depressed.
Sarebear- I was hoping you would add your insight on this thread. My father has suffered from bi-polar/manic depression for all of his life and reading what you write helps me be more compassionate towards him.
I will speak up as someone who has dealt with a rather serious case of what the psycho-industrial complex calls depression for a couple of decades now. The first point I would like to make is this is an enormously variegated phenomena that effects a large percentage of the population to some degree at one time or another, but affects a small percentage severely on a life long basis.
I like to think of depression as a symptom of a wide variety of causes, comparable in variety of causation to headaches. Sure sin against ones own conscience can cause depression, so can a lot of unusually stressful situations. Some people face circumstances that they do not know how to handle and adapt that results in depression. All of these people are the lucky ones, because they can be relatively easily helped – counseling, a change in occupation, self-discipline, repentance, a proper understanding of the gospel, etc. can probably cure or at least significantly mitigate the problem in the vast majority of persons.
That corrigibility, as experienced by so many is a problem for those with incorrigible cases – especially those without any visible causes at all. Those are the people that people on both sides of the aisle – the psychologists and the ministers – look at and think surely there is some unrepented sin or defect in mental outlook.
When I first started experiencing debilitating ‘depression’ in my late teens I had no unusual attitude or outlook problems, I understood the gospel well, I was not a depressive perfectionist, not worried about my eternal salvation. The only thing unusual was I was rather shy, and somewhat precocious – having started college a couple of years early. I worked an awful lot as a contract computer game programmer when I wasn’t at school, and that was a significant stress factor, but nothing out of the ordinary of common human experience. I got A’s and B’s in school and a full eight hours of sleep every night.
The problem was that about age eighteen I started developing intense headaches, headaches were my constant companion for the next decade and to a lesser extent even today. That was nothing – what happened next was not any notable change in mental attitude, but rather a gradual decline in mental sharpness, short term memory, etc. That is a little disconcerting if you have developed a reputation as a wunderkind, but surely nothing that a few months rest shouldn’t fix, right?
Well, I quit my job a few months before my nineteenth birthday, to rest and prepare for my mission and instead of things getting better, they got worse. I didn’t have any unusual mental attitudes, and nothing to be depressed about except a little meta-depression. I didn’t have any idea what was wrong with me – the coup de grace was my inability to finish a programming contract about which I indeed did feel very bad at the time, based on a sense of honor and integrity, but there was nothing I could do except offer my computer as partial compensation.
Still several months later I was stuck in a state close to being a mental basketcase – not because I felt any unresolved gult, nor did I have any strange thoughts or inappropriate attitudes, but rather my brain seemed to be stuck in the 5% position. Now of course if one thinks it is permanent, one can indeed get meta-depression, being depressed about being “depressed”. I didn’t really feel that until after my mission.
I did manage to serve a full two year mission after the problem was discovered. I can say that from front to back, and indeed to this day I had little but contempt for the idea that I could think my way or repent my way out of my problem.
Indeed repentance was the very first thing I tried – I repented of every little thing I could think of, and felt corresponding blessings of course, but improved health was not one of them. Changing my attitude (which really wasn’t that unusual anyway) didn’t make a blip – I had nothing to have a bad attitude about, except my illness of course, and I thought it was temporary.
So I am sure plenty here think I am strange enough already, but I present myself as a case study of one who has “depression” of an unknown origin, one who without medication has an effective brain shutdown within ninety days – having had that experience twice now, first before I had any treatment, and many years later in foolish frustration with the efficacy of what I had.
I have personality quirks to be sure, but most people think I am quite normal. I resent the classification of what I have as a “mental illness”, as if somehow my thinking process is defective. I do not have a mental illness – sometimes I have mental symptoms, but the only time I have ever had strange or bizarre thoughts were due to the side effects of over-medication or medication withdrawal. Most people will tell you I am quite normal and well adjusted. I certainly do not have any attitude problems or significant unresolved sins.
I think most of us would be a lot better off if the psycho-industrial complex went back in their cave and quit pretending to counsel people out of serious physiological problems which they are not competent to handle, having barely emerged from the witch doctor stage less than half a century ago, if that. Sure a psychiatrist can prescribe reasonably effective medications by some version of pharmaceutical roulette, but this condescending oh there must be something horribly wrong with you attitude is just too much, and every psychiatrist / psychologist I have met is afflicted with it – what I call the psychological fallacy.
Strictly speaking, I am not sure there is such a thing as “mental illness”. Many people have problems, need counselling, etc., but is something that you have mental control or potential mental control over really an “illness” (i.e. something that happens to you – the reality of the symptoms I do not deny)?
That is more like an attitude or adaptation problem, or an artifact of abuse. Speaking to those whose causes are derived elsewhere, as life long problems almost inevitably are, whether genetic or environmental or whatever, as if they can will themselves to health by thinking happy thoughts or discarding every principle of morality (those evil ‘shoulds’) is an abomination.
This is a tough topic and one I find little sympathy for in the church. My 13year old was recently diagnosed with Bi Polar. We are grateful on the one hand that we have a diagnosis, but on the other it is very painful for us. I read Duane’s post and fear for our daughter. The reaction I have got is mixed, I think deep down most people really feel if we just were better (more spiritual) parents the problems will go away. They won’t. There is no miracle and so far no cure. She (and her family) will have to live with it. I realize that bad choices will make us depressed, but sometimes those bad choices arise from very real imbalances. I have seen my daughter time after time do something stupid and ruin something she has worked hard on. So far she is young and to an extent we can control her life, but what happens in 10 years? What intolerances will she face? I have been told so many things at church, from why can’t you control that kid, to you need to break her spirit, and just pray. Well if only it were that easy. It is easy to be tolerant of those with visible disorders such as Downs, but not so easy for those whom you can’t tell are different. We as Latter Day Saints need to practice tolerance better. Some of us are so self-righteous and busy being perfect that we forget the pure love of Christ. We forget we want to be like Him, and that we are ALL here to learn.
PJ
Duane,
Sorry you’re having such an ordeal with your sister. There is a wonderful organization called the National Alliance on Mental Illiness (www.nami.org) that was created by families in your situation. They have chapters around the country. There are millions of people in your situation, and it can be useful to compare notes on how to care for a family member with serious mental illness…without becoming completely overwhelmed and burned out.
As an LCSW who has worked with seriously mentally ill patients for a long time, I see how religion is a two-edged sword. While I agree with Doc (#12) completely, there’s a downside to religion, too. The problem, imo, is that the scriptural tradition comes out of a time when there was no knowledge of mental illness. The New Testament seems to conflate mental illness and demon possession, for example. Alma 41:10, et. al. don’t help much either. On the whole, though, religious involvement seems to help. At my hospital, we often encourage the patients to seek out support and fellowship in a church, synagogue, whatever. It seems to help them.
I agree we should think the best of others and avoid calling evil what we do not know is evil. It’s clear that some of the troubles we have spring from biological sources and can be treated as medical problems.
But I also think we need to be wary–for ourselves–of biological determinism. It’s a theory in ascendance and for some it will replace the gospel. Obviously, it is drawing on some truths and many successes. It can be a welcome refuge from responsibility to blame all our ills on genes or chemicals. I know several people who seem to be hooked on an endless series of therapies and who never seem to get better.
It really is true that many of our troubles can be fixed by more self-discpline, by seeking the spirit through repentance and prayer and scripture reading, and by more learning–more understanding. I would still recommend that people try these first, before turning to chemical adjustments. Coming to a mighty change of heart might not seem as necessary when Prozac is available.
Though, as I said, sometimes a medication is precisely what is needed.
I agree, MLU. I do not see how any form of strict determinism can be compatible with the gospel, or with morality, language, or meaning for that matter.
I’ve had clinical depression and I believe very strongly that in my case (emphasis on “MY”), it was the result of spiritual weakness. Specifically, it was because I failed to build myself up spiritually so that when the hard times hit, I was not spiritually prepared to deal with them.
I have always had a very strong mind and have used it to develop my ability to control my mental state. However, the depression was my mental state running in circles. It got there because I did not have the strength to control it. The medication jolted me out of the rut I’d thought myself into, but I discovered that it did not have the power to keep me out of it; only I had that power, and so I made the changes that pulled me out. I had to go off the meds pretty quickly because they were impairing my ability to do mathematics, which is a quality I as a math teacher rather need.
Now that I know what to look for, I can see when I’m starting to gravitate toward that rut again and I stop myself. I have found that the principles of the Gospel, specifically the Atonement and service to others, help me in this.
I do not believe that all mental illness is caused by sin, but I do believe that in many cases sin is a contributing factor. I have known people who honestly thought they ought to be able to do drugs, sleep around, be selfish and still be perfectly happy, and it comes as a total (and honest) surprise to them that these choices that go against everything their soul knows would make them depressed. They listen to Satan’s lies that we have a perfect right to happiness no matter what we do, and were convinced that nothing they did could possibly contribute to their mental state. On the other hand I have known people who suffered from mental illness, sometimes from childhood, sometimes as a result of abuses perpetrated on them. While certain aspects of their condition they cannot be held responsible for, other aspects are within their control, but because they choose not to do what they know will help, they make their own lives more miserable. They do things like go off their meds on purpose, harming their families rather than sacrificing their desire to escape some imagined opprobrium.
I have never heard of an LDS person holding a mentally ill person wholly responsible for their illness and blaming it all on sin, except in theory. If there are such, I imagine they are (a) few and far between, and (b) no more judgmental than any other ignorant person in the general population (of whom I’ve known many, they are usually convinced that mental illness can be miraculously cured by vitamins or mangosteen juice or whatever the snake-oil of the day is, rather than by religious phenomena). I have seen a lot of not wanting to get involved, but I think that it’s wiser for people who don’t know what they’re doing to stay out of the situation, so I don’t think of this as a negative.
Sara, I’m glad you shared, also. I believe it’s only openness that will help society deal with this problem.
I feel so sad for you, Duane, Wacky Hermit, Mark, and Pi. I hate that life is hard, just hate it. I am so going to rest up when I die.
But it struck me reading your posts that perhaps there is a strong physical element in what we are discussing. My health is not good, beyond my depressive tendencies and I constantly struggle to keep up with all the demands of life as a Mormon. I wear myself out physically, get sick, and get more depressed.
We have to take good care of ourselves. You cannot simply suck it up, as you seem to indicate, Tyler. If it were possible, there wouldn’t be that many mentally ill people in the world. It’s not fun.
I recall that when it first became apparent to all that I was seriously ill, someone (who may not have been speaking of me particularly) got up in fast and testimony meeting and described asking her grandfather about the causes of such strange afflictions, and told us that he said the only cause could be some serious sin.
I was naturally incensed – thinking “hasn’t anyone read the book of Job in this church?” Of course that was fifteen some odd years ago, and I believe understanding of the varieties of this problem has improved since then. It seems to me though that there is no more common error in logic than to move incorrectly from A implies B to B implies A. Just because a hammer drives nails does not mean that it is the only thing that drives nails.
I do have more to say, but I need to gather my thoughts together, if I can. Disorganized thought patterns and short to very little attention span frequently are part of my problems.
While I do that, though, I thought I’d link to various posts of mine, both on my blog, and around the ‘naccle, that I think will be helpful for those who have not read them yet:
Hear Me poem, which was featured on BCC awhile back.
Diagnosis and reaction to it
Shoelaces Analogy for mental illness
Of Two Minds
Depression & Other struggles:
Downward Spiral Begins
Chill fog of depression
Trying hard
Imagine walking toward a fusillade of 1000 arrows, all heading straight for YOU.
Raw & Intensely Emotional
A popeye day. Struggling to learn, and judge when/how/what/why to say and act.
A rather rambly post on instability, & perceptual problems
Personal Hygiene & Depression
Mental illness & ability to control ones’ self
To know the worst thing about yourself is that you exist
Poison. (You can skip the part about the spider . . .)
struggles, and some positive stuff too. (I’m embarassed by my post referred to in the BCC thread linked in this post, but since that sort of thing is part of how my behavior is affected by things, I’ll leave it there. Plus, the rest of the post is good too.)
Mania:
Embrace Your Inner Gonzo (a bit about mania)
A bit more on mania
Silliness/Mania? Silliness/Me
Recklessly Dangerous Mania
Snapshot of manic brain-state
Manic, or maybe mixed?
Mania & Scattered thinking
Medication issues:
Medication Problems
Medication Benefits: How do you describe the indescribable?
Side Effects?
Religious issues and my mental illnesses:
Fight goes on, wearily (some scripture readings related to my struggles)
Building myself from semi-scratch, begun with faith
Family vs. Friends, in the Church
Faith vs. reckless optimism vs. refusal to deal w/reality
Widow’s Mite & Punchbuggy Sara
Disassociation:
Disoriented (Dissassociation) and follow up, w/more dissassociation.
Therapy:
Therapy tears of pain & joy
A peek into therapy.
Some people will just never get me . . .
Therapeutic relationship issues
Support and friends I’ve made online, especially in the bloggernaccle, and how helpful it is to me:
]
Support, friendship is SO helpful.
Here’s a paragraph from DBSA that I think is helpful regarding one thing people can do to help.
I’ll link to some of my comments on mental health issues around the naccle, soon, if anyone is interested. I guess the above is kind of a best of the best, of my posts that illuminate the struggle, issues involved, faith, scriptures, and the like as they relate to my illnesses, therapy and therapeutic issues, and other things.
I do need to, after summarizing my blog like this, do more writing on what people can do to help, although I suppose that might come across as me saying, HEY, do this for me. But people want to know, from my perspective, at least from what I’ve read, both in this thread and others . . . what would be good to do, and maybe some things they might think to do that might be not so good things to do.
CRUD! I just wrote a really pertinent long reply, and it says comments are closed and didn’t accept it. Does anyone at T&S have it? I’d hate to have to tdo it over . . . hoping it submitted and is somewhere in the system . . .
Whew. Lol.
I’ve had a fairly short bout with moderate depression (I say that with the benefit of hindsight – at the time I thought my world was ending). I am now off my meds and pretty stable. The part that puzzled me the most about my experience, and that still bothers me, was the complete failure of spiritual remedies. I got a revelation in the temple that God hates women, and me in particular. Reading the Ensign set off a weekend-long crying jag. Praying to an echo chamber got so debilitating that I quit praying altogether. I’d read the BOM every day for 16 years, and suddenly every word in it was telling me how worthless and awful I was.
The few times I found the Church addressed depression, it was to acknowledge that it existed and to encourage seeking help. But nowhere did the Church discuss the spiritual fall-out of depression, i.e., the experience of being betrayed by a God who is supposed to help you in your extremities. People would try to excuse God by saying there was some sort of chemical imbalance that affected my ability to feel the Spirit. That doesn’t sound plausible. I was trying my best to be as righteous as I could, and I’d done that for years. So God was up in heaven, wringing his hands, and saying, “oh, I wish I could reassure Melinda that I still love her even though I’m not going to heal her, but I’m powerless against a minor chemical imbalance.” God just isn’t that wimpy.
Once God has dumped you like a hot potato during the worst experience of your life, how do you ever get back to trusting him? I’d rather not rely on him at all, then try to rely on him and having my life blow up in my face again. I know that my attitude is based on fear, and “God has not give us the spirit of fear, but of love and of a sound mind,” but if I don’t have a sound mind, apparently I don’t have any claim on God’s help. It was a real shock to realize that taking pills had more influence on my peace of mind than righteous living did.
Depression was the gospel failing in its promises. The sacramental prayers that promise that “we’ll always have his spirit to be with us” don’t include an asterisk that says, “unless you get depression, then you’re on your own.”
Everyone I talked to in the church was more or less understanding and compassionate about depression. But none of them had any helpful insights about how to recover spiritually from depression. Emotionally and physically I’m fine. Spiritually, I’m not. And I don’t know what to do about it, and neither does anyone else.
I think the problem is that the Church teaches you to expect certain things from God. A covenant is a two-way promise, so you list covenants on the chalkboard during Sunday School. We promise to take the sacrament, always remember him, and take his name upon us. In return, God promises that we’ll always have his spirit to be with us. See the problem? God is incapable of breaking a covenant, but it’s obvious that depression is the ultimate in not having the spirit with you.
So there’s the rub with mental illness – they could all be cured by the presence of the spirit. Having hallucinations? Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Hating yourself? God loves you. Feeling despair? And the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace and etc. And Mormons teach that we feel the spirit through our own efforts, by seeking the spirit through prayer, scripture study, service, and worship. We teach it like it’s a guarantee – if you do these things, God has to send you his spirit.
And Mormons are so determined to teach righteous living, that we can’t possibly acknowledge that there’s a wild card that means you don’t get the spirit no matter how righteous you are. That’s where the judgmentalism comes in. Since mental illness is an absence of the spirit, then the person must not be living righteously, because living righteously guarantees you the companionship of the Holy Ghost. “And I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say.” See? The Lord *has* to send his spirit, which would alleviate the suffering caused by mental illness.
Mormon theology does not have a place for the righteous to suffer spiritually. It’s tentatively beginning to acknowledge that such a phenomenon exists, but it does not know how to explain it.
MLU,
While I absolutely agree that our biology is not our destiny, I do not see how your idea of trying prayer, scripture reading, repentance before trying medication. That attitude is what frightens people from ever admitting a problem or getting help. Medication is not the solution, but it does tone down what is going on in depression so that the prayer, scriptures, etc. can do their work. If you admit there is some biological part of depression, why not treat it and THEN try to work out the other parts of your problem. Mark mentioned that he had actual slowing of his mind. That does not seem like something study and faith are going to help any more than any other illness. Medication has a role to play. What is critical is to realize that treating depression is not as simple as medication by itself. The thought patterns need to be fixed as well.
I should specify that what I am referring to is clinical depression. This is a little different than Bipolar disorder, which is clearly an biochemical imbalance. This is something that MUST be treated medically. Since they appear normal on the outside, their behavior can be very difficult not to judge. I agree with PJ that bipolar patients can be held completely responsible for what they do in the middle of a manic or depressive episode.
From personal experience, I think we often do not realize how tightly out spirit is bound up with our body in this mortal state. I know that in a sufficient state of depression (i.e. bordering on incapacity) it is practically impossible to feel the Spirit. At times like that one has to operate completely on faith. It makes for a very effective character test.
Most of the time I believe I have handled it reasonably well, but I had a compound experience a few years back that converted me into a philosophical Christian for a while – compound because there was much more going on than incapacity alone – including my first experience with false spiritual impressions so real to me I could not distinguish them at the time from the real thing.
That is what I mean about the spirit being wound up with the body – if it gets sufficiently out of whack, even your spiritual perception is unreliable. One has to drop out of the practice of following the Spirit and fall back on knowledge and experience alone, because your body, which is designed to be a carefully tuned spiritual commun-ication system, just isn’t working properly.
Now when I started getting the right medication again, it took a full eighteen months for my testimony to recover to its previous state, signalled not just by the knowledge of gospel principles, but the ability to feel the testimony of the Holy Spirit as well, the companionship of the Holy Ghost that was imperceptible throughout most of that period, and other comparable intervals in the past, though not quite so severe (no material weakening of testimony for example).
Melinda,
I am so sorry for your experience, I can only imagine it must have been very rough. I’m not going to begrudge you your anger. I see children everyday that innocent though they may be have all kinds of horrors piled upon them, cerebral palsy, siezures, mental retardation, near total loss of function, clear unnecessary and random suffering to a horrible degree. I have wondered myself, why doesn’t God heal them? Why did he allow this to happen in the first place? He must be able to change it if he wanted to. How many in the New Testament were healed by faith of any infirmity. Neither you or I are the first ones to ask such a question.
It sounds to me as though you are suffering emotionally and spiritually. Anger and depression are emotions. I sometimes regret how depression is labeled “mental illness” It can slow your mind and destroy concentration, but it is primarily an emotional disturbance. It also causes extreme difficulty seeing things positively. But I think that the failure to realize that mental illness is actually illness is a big part of your anger. When our emotions or thinking are impaired, how do we realize that our reasoning may then be lacking. How many thoughts during depression are the condition speaking and not ourselves?
That is something to think about but not the whole answer. Plenty of paraplegics and cancer victims have developed the exact same anger you describe. I am not going to you I have the answer to why God allows bad things to happen to good people. Religion has always struggled with this question. I firmly believe he does love and care for you just as he does all who suffer. I also firmly believe that he has felt the pain. He knows what it is like. In our anger, we turn from God but I really don’t think God turns from us. Anyway, maybe I’m just making you angrier. I want you to know I’ll be thinking about you and praying for you.
I am glad to see Sarebear comment on this post. She has provided a lot of good insight on similar posts in the past.
My wife suffers from a constellation of mental health problems, resulting from severe physical, mental, and sexual abuse she suffered at the hands of her uncle (among others) starting when she was about two or three years old. Some of the symptoms seem bizarre, to the point that many people in the town we used to live in believed she was making them up. Unfortunately for us, some of those people held positions of leadership in the church, and they effectively drove us out of town. The branch president wanted to excommunicate her, and the only reason he didn’t was that the district president forbad him from even convening a court. As we left town, the district relief society president told a mutual friend that the church was much better off without “people like us.” Small town, small minds, small hearts.
We are now living in a ward where the Bishop has previous experience with friends of his with the same diagnosis, and he has been very supportive to us in our struggles. In our experience, the Church really isn’t the same everywhere. We are now in one of the good places.
Although the depression suffered by otherwise worthy individuals may or may not be bound up with what the New Testament Apostles were speaking of, their testimony is full of descriptions of the role and purpose and even efficacy of the spiritual suffering of the righteous. Worst case it is the refiner’s fire, teaching us how to be faithful in the dark. The precedent for the righteous to be left alone for a time is well testified of in the scriptures. Moses, Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, etc.
It seems unlikely depression in mortal would do any more good than that, but it seems quite likely that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, slain from the foundation of the world, was and is indeed felt by him very much like a serious case of depression. In other words the spiritual burdens that he carries must surely weigh him down in both body and spirit, so much so that he would rather avoid the bitter cup completely.
Perhaps those who have experienced true physiological darkness or pain of other sorts have some glimmering of an idea what it must be like for Christ to bear the consequences of our transgressions, so that we do not die spiritually. Indeed given the sacrifice we are each called to participate in, unto the fulfiling of the law and the testimony, Christianity can be seen to be a call to suffering – so very many suffer, even unto depression, just trying to observe their covenants. That sort of depression is not a result of a poor understanding of the gospel – it is the physiological fatigue of the diligent. The adherents of the happy smiley all the time gospel have never read the New Testament, or if they have, they have not understood it.
I’v been at school all day and I can’t begin to respond to all the heart-breaking and thoughtful comments here. In a sense, though, this is probably a good thing because I can’t really respond to many of these comments–or, if I tried, my comments would ring empty because I don’t have the intimate and frightening experience with depression that many of those commenting here do. As many people here have asked (either implicitly or explicitly), the difficult question, the wintry doctrine at the heart of the issue is: why do faithful people suffer so very much and why do some suffer so much more than others. It is not difficult to argue, for instance, that one of the Book of Mormon’s major themes is: those who keep the commandments will prosper. I think most of us have moved beyond thinking this true in a material sense, but we still want (I still want) to believe that righteousness and happiness are proportional to one another. Not is some immediate, “do a trick, get a treat” kind of way, but in some deeper, recognizable, profound way. And, I think this is true. My favorite conference talk of all time is Elder Holland’s “An High Priest of Good Things to Come.” With him, I know “that God lives, that He is our Eternal Father, that He loves each of us with a love divine. I testify that Jesus Christ is His Only Begotten Son in the flesh and, having triumphed in this world, is an heir of eternity, a joint-heir with God, and now stands on the right hand of His Father. I testify that this is Their true Church and that They sustain us in our hour of need—and always will, even if we cannot recognize that intervention. Some blessings come soon, some come late, and some don’t come until heaven; but for those who embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come.” Still, depression and other difficulties involving the mind and heart are just so hard. I wish I had a more comforting answer. Maybe someone else does?
In, the fight goes on, wearily, link/post, I talk about how for 20 years (from age 13 or so, to age 33, when finally the prayers were answered and I began to receive help, and blessings from the Lord as to kinds of help, access to it, the right mental health providers for me, etc . . .) I prayed and struggled and did “everything” (well, tried as hard as an imperfect human could, I think) right, such as going to church, reading the scriptures, praying, etc.
I talk about how I do not think the 20 years were a punishment for not being faithful enough, but that in the Lord’s wisdom he has his own timetable for things, and that I DID learn things in those 20 years that are proving very helpful in my struggles and progress NOW. For one, those 20 years stand as a testament to me that I really am stronger than i thought . . .
Of course, this is of no comfort, because struggling day after day, month after month, decade after decade, with seemingly no response from on High to our desperate pleas for succor . . . I don’t know a way to describe what that feels like.
Anyway, I thought I’d point out that link I posted above in particular, as I’ve been reading some of the comments.
I have some other issues to address, but again, still pulling myself together. I do have a strong feeling inside that there is something worthwhile and helpful that I have to say, once I compose it. I say that humbly, and not egotistically at all, if you get my feeling and meaning.
Thank you to everyone who has remarked so kindly on my presence in this thread; it was and is a delightful surprise to me each time I see that someone seems to find some value and helpful relation in the things I have to say, and in my perspective. That they even look forward to what I might have to say on the subject. Thank you . . . . that means so much to me.
Melinda, Sarebear, and others: thank you so much for your candor, honesty, and willingness to be patient in sharing your experiences with others. Many in the Kingdom want so much to help, but may struggle to know how best to go about it. This thread has taught me many things about my brothers and sisters. I hope, after reading it, I will be more sensitive, loving, and kind.
I have been dealing with mental illness issues for a number of years now (bi-polar disorder). Generally, the members I’ve encountered have been very understanding. I just had one bishop who drove me nuts. On a couple of occasions, I went in to talk to him about some problems in the ward (problems with cliques, people feeling excluded, etc.), and it ended up turning into a discussion about how it was okay that I was on psychiatric medication and how I needed to overcome my depression in order to make friends in the ward. While the bishop was understanding about the depression, I was frustrated because all my actions were pathologized. The bishop refused to take my expressions of how the ward was causing problems for me (and I was not the only one having similar problems) seriously, and instead, decided to blame them on my mental illness.
So, I guess my addition to the discussion is: yes, it helps when others are kind and understanding, but it also helps when they treat you like a complex, intelligent person whose experiences are made up of more than struggles with mental illness.
Mark’s mind is slowed? Well good thing! Who could keep up with him if he were firing on all cylinders?
Melinda, Mark, & Doc,
I’ve experienced an almost complete “deadening” of the spirit. And I must say that it’s a good thing because, like Mark, I had lots of strange psychological notions (voices) that I could not differentiate from the spirit. I would act on them compulsively–powerless to yield to common sense.
So now, while the heavens seem to be made of brass, at least I’m getting a clearer understanding of what the spirit is *not*. And that, I think, is a step forward even though true moments of “spiritual enlightenment” seem to be a thing of the past.
Seraphine: Please see my comment # 14.
Seraphine,
You bring up a good point. Comparing mental illness to physical illness may help people to relate better and remove stigmatization, to see someone as only their condition is to trade one prejudice for another.
That IS a good point. I’ve been fearful of expressing that I’d like to be treated like an intelligent member of society, and yet have consideration for my struggles; been afraid that people would say, well, it sounds like you want to have it both ways . . .
But you know, that’s all or nothing thinking. People have all sorts of things that are struggles and limitations, and many people are at different capacities of their capability at various points in their lives, depending on health and many other factors.
So it’s okay, then, and I’m NOT wanting it both ways.
As far as the mind slowing thing, it seems like someone reported that, to kind of “prove” that these things affect more than just emotional states; that they actually physically affect the brain’s pathways, and how efficient or not your thinking is; how functioning your brain processes are, or how ham-strung they might be . . .
These things DO affect measurable cognitive ability, although I wish that acceptance and understanding of these being illnesses wouldn’t seem to need these as proof to help make it sit better with some.
That said, I’ll go into some of what I experience.
I used to play the piano, with much feeling. I put my whole self into it, and enjoyed it immensely. There came a time, where I could not practice out errors. My brain would not learn. Improvements wouldn’t “stick”; they just slid off and would not uptake into my brain and body and reflexes, as it came to playing the piano. I had played since 7 years old, and not encountered this before. Songs that I had become rusty at, but used to know, would not improve, either. Even hymns, the majority of which are pretty easy, would not, even with their cadence and repetitive chords and notes.
This was very frustrating to me, and to be faced wish such a . . . distinct decline in mental ability and process was also decidedly unpleasant and frightening. To KNOW that your capacity was diminished . . . it’s not a fun place to be.
A few other things, briefly:
For most of my life, I’d do a kind of mental exercise when checking out at the cashier in various stores. I’d “race” the register to figure out the exact change, first. This wasn’t one of my OCD things, that I HAD to do, but rather something I was delighted to discover that I excelled at, as a child, and so had done it ever since. Well, about 4 years ago, I was WRONG. I was NEVER wrong!!! Granted, no one is perfect, but the thing is, when doing this, I ALWAYS could detect an error mentally in the math as soon as it happened, and correct it. Since I had never been wrong in the result I ended up with, I challenged the cashier on it . . . and felt stupid, and was SHOCKEd, when I realized how wrong I was. I know this sounds like a simple thing to some, but . . . it was like cracks appearing in my mind, and they were widening, and it wasn’t so much that I had made an error, but that I had not realized it inside; my mental processes were such that it was very logical and stuff; my very logic had fallen into a crack or wormhole, and I somehow thought the laws of math that were now wrong in my head, were the way things actually were (although not really on a conscious level, though). Sorry, that WASN’T briefly, lol.
Increasing aphasia. As well as transposing words and parts of words, increasing. Everybody does this from time to time (try accidentally transposing parts of Fudrucker’s, the hamburger chain, in an embarassing way . . . eep!), but increasing beyond that, year by year. In little increments, but since I’m big on words, I notice it.
I used to be able to write much better than this, and more focused. That really bothers me, although I can understand the increase in attention problems and such as being part of the problem, but other parts include not being able to retrieve the thought, phrase, information I’m looking for to write about, as the associations in my brain seem to have loosened up; it’s like someone’s taken a filing cabinet and shuffled things around. I’m also not able to think things through as well as I used to, although I think, MAYBE there might be a touch of it coming back, on occasion, now. Many cognitive processes associated with writing, among other things. I no longer can write poems, either.
I feel kind of like the man in Flowers for Algernon, at least while he was still intelligent enough to know that his faculties were declining. Can you imagine for a minute what that might feel like? Especially for someone who wanted to be an oceanographer, planetary geologist, or some other fun scientific profession. I really did used to be smart . . . almost perfect ACT score, and all that, too. I found the intellectual stimulation, at a high level, to be FASCINATING. To be FUN, at least often, anyway. There’s always dull parts of science, but I was a real thinker. Not to sound conceited. I hope I don’t . . .
Anyway, there’s other things, but . . .Oh! One thing, also, is that, according to various research, it’s rather likely that people like me tend to have larger ventricular spaces in their brains, than others.
I find that quite disturbing. Wouldn’t you, upon learning that the cerebrospinal fluid-filled areas of your brain were quite probably larger than the rest of the population, meaning you had less grey matter? Some days I DO feel like I have a big hole in my head . . . hear that sloshing? hee hee.
I know I’ve gone on, here, about this issue, but one other thing in this vein, that I find particularly personally troubling. You know how many of the elderly, do not seem to cope well or aren’t comfortable around 1-2 children playing even just moderately noisily, or moderately actively, not even necessarily being extreme in either factor? I used to, selfishly and judgementally, and very insularly (is that a word? lol) when I was younger, wonder WHY the elderly just couldn’t deal . . .
Now I have alot better idea of why. I have noticed, over hte last 4-5 years, that my brain just gets on edge, when around a child who is bouncing off the walls, is extremely active, or two that keep going back and forth and around alot, even if they aren’t running and being noisy . . . . it’s the CHAOS of it that just . . . there’s a misfiring/miswiring kind of feeling in the brain, that there is SOME BASIC PROCESS of the brain that normally handles and processes this type of activity in our environments, but that has greatly lessened or shut down in my case . . . it’s hard to explain, because being able to be in an environment like this, without being so “grit your teeth/on edge-like”, even if the kids are being CUTE, and not rambunctious, or much anyway, is something that I always took for granted, and never really thought about as a process and a function of a healthy brain. This processing happens on such an automatic, unconscious level, that we really don’t think about it.
But I do now . . . Yes, I do know that kids bopping around can be annoying to anyone, but I am talking about a much greater frequency and amplitude of being on edge, and even feeling out of control; I can’t make myself feel less on edge when this happens, no matter how hard I try.
Anyway. Food for thought, I suppose. I went on so long, and “fattened up” this post, that maybe it’s a Big Mac when it should’ve been a Whopper Jr. . . . . (can ya tell I’m hungry lol.)
You’ve expressed so much of what I cope with, Sara. A wonderful post.
Sarebear,
Again, thanks for posting. My wife has recently been experiencing bouts of forgetfulness, to the point of even losing her thread of thought mid-sentence. I am not sure how her experience mirrors yours, but it gives me hope to see how well you are coping with so many similar issues.
Doh! I forgot about that losing thread of thought thing mid-sentence. Happens to me EXTEMELY FREQUENTLY! And yet, I forget it happens. Which, I suppose, is kinda ironically funny . . .
I keep referring to, my train of thought crashed AGAIN. Apparently my brain is run by some wild and crazy train engineers . . . Or my train of thought jumped the tracks, because I frequently switch to a different subject that makes complete sense to me as to how I got there, mentally, but it doesn’t to anyone else, and they are kinda stuck making a quick mental what the heck adjustment before they can focus in on it.
I mean WIERD seguewayless jumps, that in my mind the strange (to others) associations make perfect sense.
I forgot what I was talking about, and even WHY I was talking. I go in a room and halfway there I’m like, what the heck was I going here for? I think this happens to everybody, but again, a noticeable increase in frequency.
Thanks, annegb (call me, I couldn’t switch dd’s playdate, so we can meet earlier if you like tomorrow! Yes, I get to meet annegb tomorrow I’m SO excited!).
Thanks, anon. Both of you guys’ kind words are like a balm of Gilead to me; I feel so . . . inefficacious (is that a word?) at just about everything, so the fact that I can have a positive impact means alot to me; the fact that something so personally and sincerely meant as what I have to SAY . . . that that could be helpful, and appreciated, and that you would tell me so, is so so so valued by me.
Then there’s also what’s called word salad. Rushed, pressured speech that just tumbles out of me. I detest myself for it, for jabbering on and on, at least, when I’m not painfully shy, but I literally can’t help it (I have spent my WHOLE LILFE trying to stop it; the refrains of other children telling me to shut up, still ring in my ears; and have not been successful).
I feel more spiritual when I exercise regularly. In fact, I find it well nigh impossible to feel spiritual when I don’t exercise regularly. The body is half the soul, and the chemically and hormonally healthier the body, the healthier the spirit tends to be. I’m not saying that spiritual sensations all have their roots in the physical world. Sure, I find it difficult to feel the spirit after a bowl of pasta and half a pan of brownies, but I would never attribute all my spiritual experiences to, say, PMS. Hats off to anyone who can feel truly spiritual while clinically depressed. I certainly never have.
I have had bouts of depression, usually piggybacking off of something else. For example, I’m pretty sure I had post-partum depression after two of my three children. And with some health issues I have had the past few years (like chronic fatigue, but not classic anything…undiagnosed yuckiness), I have had several dark periods.
I have thought about this trial of depression a lot over the years, having experienced some of the struggle myself. I think one of the hardest elements of it is how it can cloud the ability to feel peace from the Spirit. I think, in that way, it is such a difficult test of faith. I read through parts of Elder Morrison’s book, and that is one of the things he talked about — that the test may be, at those times, to keep pressing forward even though one does not feel anything. It can feel so twisted, so extremely unfair.
With that in mind, might I share an article that has really given me some profound food for thought? Perhaps some of you might find it helpful as well. You can find it here.
My heart goes out to those of you who have depression and other struggles on a consistent basis. My struggles have come in a different form — more come and go-ish — but I can still empathize a little with how difficult it can be to battle the blackness. Thank you for being willing to open up here. I think that an openness about these things can be very helpful.
Another thought — I think it’s important for us not to define ourselves by these types of trials. That’s easy to say but not so easy to do, I know. We are not our biology, however. We are children of God. And our afflictions here are for “a small moment.” Sometimes that seems too much to bear, but I think the Lord wants us to learn how to try see beyond the moment and hope for all that awaits us if we just keep going, enduring, holding on to faith.
Incidentally, I had one of those blackish days yesterday. I read Elder Holland’s most recent Conference talk and it gave me a lot of perspective and understanding. I think no matter what our trials, doing what we can to try “to have more straightforward personal experience with the Savior’s example” can help us in our journey. Of course, how each of us is able to do that will vary, because we each are at different places, with different abilities at any given moment. But I appreciated the reminder to seek Him first, to strive to emulate Him a little more in order to feel more of His healing touch. I think sometimes I expect that touch when I’m not really coming to Him except in desperation, pleading for relief. Reading Elder Holland’s talk made me realize I need to come more to Him by trying to become more like Him, even when it feels my offering toward that end is small and simple. That is a key way to be in a better place to receive His relief and strength.
There is one lesson I’ve learned from depression that has almost made it all worth it. I used to be self-righteous and I would think that sinners deserved the suffering they got. Now I hope that God forgives everyone ASAP so they can feel the spirit again and feel God’s love. It’s so awful to be cut off from the spirit. I don’t care if people deserve to be cut off or not; I want God to forgive them and heal them so they don’t hurt like that anymore, no matter how much responsibility they have for creating their own miserable situations. I wouldn’t wish spiritual isolation on my worst enemy if it feels anything like depression. I really like the parable about the laborers now – where God pays everyone the same no matter how late they began laboring in the vineyard.
Not long ago, I heard someone make a snide comment about a mutual acquaintance deserving what he got because of his own bad choices. I was shocked at such a self-righteous judgmental attitude because I’d been listening to the same story and honestly hoping he’d repent so he could feel God’s love again. Then I had to remind myself that I probably would have agreed with the snide comment less than 10 years ago so I shouldn’t think poorly of the commenter either.
Except for the sons of Perdition, whose eternal fate we do not know, there shall be no person cut off eternally from the Spirit of the Lord. I must say that being truly cut off is a far worse experience than simply being unable to feel the Spirit. Rather one becomes vulnerable to evil and wordly influences of every variety. There is a parable about that.
So ultimately, except for an unusually rebellious few, being cut off is a temporary state with a view to their eternal salvation, and of course deterrence of evil, but in the last ultimately a good thing even for the suffferers thereof. Inner darkness is the most paradoxical blessing ever devised. Indeed the darkness we suffer on this earth is merely one step higher.
We should be so grateful if we live to see the day where the earth is raised up to a temporal terrestrial state of glory, where there indeed (so far as the heirs of this earth are concerned) shall be no more temporal telestial at all.
I am wondering if the tyler johnson of the blog is related to a friend of mine, lucina? as for your comments, i appreciate getting others’ perspectives on the subject matter. we have a daughter with “mental health” issues. no matter what type or spectrum they are on, all of these types of issues are difficult for family. i am trained in the mental health field and find it easier to deal objectively with others with these illnesses or conditions. it is difficult to deal with one’s own family. there is not a lot of intelligence nor consistency in the understanding and treatment of those experiencing mental health challenges in the clerical or congregational reallms in the Church. really, ignorance is rampant. it truly seems to be an artform to treat those afflicted. six psychiatrists/psychologists will diagnose and treat in six different ways. to balance medical and spiritual components of treatment seems best; each individual case is different but in all cases, an understanding that sin does not cause mental illness is paramount. sin may cause guilty feelings and a withdrawing from and of the Spirit but neither of those is mental illness. Also, individuals with mental health challenges may sin due to a variety of things: perceptions, self worth issues, need to numb, cope etc. In those cases, the Church needs to deal differently with them in terms of a repentance process taking into account the altered state of the mind when reasoning processes are clouded. This is not to say that all mentally challenged or ill people do not know differences between right and wrong and cannot lead righteous lives. Thank you all for an interesting discussion; the mere fact that we are talking about the issue leaves me hopeful that we can move ahead in helping those suffering, patients and families alike.
We will know that psychiatry and clinical psychology has risen to a true science when there is a high probability that two different practitioners will identify the same problem and treat it in generally the same way. Right now I think prescriptive psychiatry is more like pharmaceutical roulette, and clinical psychology almost as bad, depending on the nature of the problem.
I have often felt the Holy Spirit even surrounding times when I have been depressed. And before I was baptized into the LDS Church, I recall feeling the influence of the Holy Spirit on occassion during my prayers when I was a troubled and depressed teen. I did not know much about personal revelation at the time, but would feel peace at times when I prayed. And I recall simple prompting once a couple of years before joining the Church when I was so anxious about my future and depressed that God has a purpose for me. I have had times that were very dark, but usually even during those times I often felt the Holy Spirit. I think after years of not attending Church and having severe ocd that one of the reasons that I decided to meet with my Bishop if I recall correctly is that I was not feeling the Holy Spirit as I usually did or with the frequency.
I do not recognize feeling the Holy Spirit much these days, which may have a lot to do with the fact that I have not been able to get past my mental illness to get back to Church. Going places is hard for me and guilt associated with my fears also makes it hard to progress.
I am sorry for those who experience cut off. I do feel that it is all for a small moment. I know that the few times that I have made it to Church in recent years that I seldom felt the Holy Spirit as my anxiety level were probably so high as that is one of my worst settings. One of the few times that I recall was when gifted Elder was playing a piano solo. I have to remind myself that I was a faithful Catholic once I made the decision to go to Church every Sunday eventhough I did not experience the feelings of the Spirit as did once I was confirmed in the LDS Church.
I also remind myself that some of blessings may have been in large part preparation to serve a mission. I needed all the strength I was given as an extemely shy person with little indepence and nonmember parents who opposed my decision at the time. Later, they were supportive though they did not agree with my going on a mission.
I do think it is important to remember that God protects us even when we are in depression. Even when you do not feel the Holy Spirit, God is there.
I also ponder how easy it was for me to do so many of the things Latter Day Saints do prior to my downfall into mental illness. Yes, it is easy to do good when you think you are such a special person. I felt so loved.
And the pain has been so great at times even though I have felt the Holy Spirit to help me from time to time. And I struggle terribly with feeling unworthy and with geting “my life back.” But I say that knowing that in many ways I feel that I have a life. I limit much of where I go and what I do. If you could count LDS Forums and the ‘Nacle, I am extemely active. But I know that does not count and that I can progress so very little.
But I do think when we are at our lowest and do not feel close to God and yet seek to be obedient and faithful that we are giving God a very pleasing gift.
And I know this may be hard to believe, but although I do not feel the Holy Spirit with the frequency that I once did, I do feel that I am a happy person. Sometimes exceedingly so. There are times that I am raw with my disorder, but much of the time with my limiting activities, it keeps it at a threshold I can stand.
Kind Bishops willing to listen to me has helped me cope so much. If they did not give me their counsel in such a respectful way, I shudder to think what may have become of me.
Somehow in the pressure cooker of ocd, I have forged an identity. In many ways, I like myself. I have talents that I enjoy sharing. Maybe I am not all that talented, but I do make people think or bring a smile to them.
A hello to Sarebear, Annegb, and Jack whose examples mean so much.
There are degrees of this illness. I can remember numerous times when I could go to Church and feel the Spirit, but I literally could not smile, or at least not in anything resembling a natural way. In other words, one can sometimes feel the peace the gospel brings while your emotions are flatlining. I just think that occasionally conditions are so poor that you cannot perceive the Spirit either, of course then you probably cannot think either, at least not effectively.
While I think my emotional problems have been very severe at times, I know others have been far more depressed in the sense of not being able to function than I have ever been. I do know that there are many who are not able to feel the Spirit when they are depressed. I know that a person can be doing what they are supposed to be doing and be hit with severe depression. A person can be very righteous and not discern the Spirit at times in their lives and at times this seems to be linked with depression.
“I know that a person can be doing what they are supposed to be doing and be hit with severe depression.”
I agree, Barb. I crashed into a deathly depression right on the heels of a major recommittment to be more obedient to God. For the longest time I couldn’t understand why God didn’t support me in my committment. I thought I had made an unacceptable offering after the manner Cain, or something.
As it turns out, I was actually trying to atone for things that really didn’t need repentance, or if they did need repentance I wasn’t leaving the atoning to God–a burden that only He can bear. I think God allowed me to suffer through this (among other reasons) to learn the difference between “healthy guilt” and “unhealthy guilt.”
It is very healthy for all concerned to bring this delicate subject out into the open. I particularly appreciate the insights that Sarebear and others similarly afflicted have brought to this discussion.
Although I have the faith to be healed of other ailments through priesthood blessings, I’ve become resigned to the fact that my lifelong depression cannot be cured, only managed. What got me into this predicament? Was it heredity? a chemical imbalance? a history of physical, mental, and sexual abuse? lack of instruction in coping skills? In my case, it could be “all of the above.” I would think twice before pointing fingers at anyone and saying they’re being punished for their sins, without proper authority. Heck, we are all sinners, and my depression dates from before I reached the age of accountability.
In times of trial, I remind myself, “Whatever happens, don’t forget the lesson!” Some good can come out of despair, if one knows where to look. Perhaps it’s just as well that I’m not emotionally demonstrative, because when it came to major decisions such as deciding which church to join, I avoided being influenced by flashy examples of spirituality, and heeded the still, small voice. I don’t burst into tears at testimony meetings, but try to comply with church standards because common sense, logic, and my faith tell me that’s the right thing to do, not because it makes me feel good. We have seen over and over again how easily subjectivity can lead even so-called normal people astray. And knowing what it’s like to fall into a bottomless pit makes one more compassionate toward those who experiencing their own trials.
Barb, if the only point made here is the one you talk about, reading this would be time well spent. I am so sick of hearing depression equated with personal righteousness. Thank you.
Equated?
Thank you, Charles, for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
Your statement that “some good can come out of despair” (as well as several other comments in this thread), make me think of a favorite quote from Hamilton Wright Mabie: “There is no way of deciding what is spiritually fortunate or unfortunate at the time; our most grevious calamities are often seen later to have borne the fruit of greatest happiness, and what appeared to be at the moment our largest prosperities have turned later to ashes in our hands. The final value of every experience depends upon its spiritual result. No one can tell what seed is in the soil until the harvest is borne; the seed of apparent bitterness often brings forth the flowers of peace.”
Mark,
I think annegb is talking about “personal righteousness” in a general sense. i.e., that depression has something to do with where the individual is at on his/her “personal righteousness barometer” implying that a “low reading” is the cause.
Annegb, I didn’t know you had internet access up there on vacation in Yellowstone, lol!
Thank you, Charles and everyone, for the kind words and mention.
Depression or other mental illness, is NOT a “punishment” or “just desserts” for unrighteousness. Now, unrighteousness can lead to those states, but someone who is depressed or has other mental illness, is NOT that way because it’s what they deserve, for some sin or something, or because they haven’t been “righteous enough”. Bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people (although that’s really generalizing people, in both cases), good things happen to bad people, etc.
Illnesses have nothing to do with our state of righteousness, our state of spirituality, or the lack thereof, or struggles with thereof. I say NOTHING, because even though they often coincide with such, and one can and often is easily depressed during struggles of spiritual and moral natures, the fact that behavior, state of mind, state of spirit, and struggles within those, can LEAD to depression and other, does NOT MEAN THAT people who suffer from depression and other are sinful, weren’t/aren’t spiritual enough, etc.
I am making the point that just because behavior and state of spirituality can lead to depression and other illnesses (I would think, that once someone who has committed a grievous sin, has started to come to a realization of what they have done, that they may well be extremely depressed, and even develop other symptoms, disorders, and even illnesses, depending on how far things went, and how long things go on, unresolved.), that just because they can lead to these things, it does NOT MEAN THAT THE REVERSE IS TRUE.
It does not mean that the reverse of this sin, struggling with spiritual issues, etc., that I would suspect could lead to a depressive state, that you can turn that around and categorically state that people who are depressed, or otherwise mentally ill/disordered, are thus sinners, etc. and that is why they are ill . . .that illness = a sinful state, or slacking off on the personal righteousness . . .
It is this reversing of what can be some people’s response to realizing their own struggles with morality, etc., that is quite troublesome, extremely judgemental, and immensely harmful to the mentally ill, their family and friends, and the rest of the church population, as well as society at large.
I think people easily reverse this. They so naturally feel that it’s understandable and even a natural possible consequence, psychologically (I wouldn’t say it’s a necessary spiritual consequence, that God hands out to those who’ve sinned, that they must needs be depressed, rather, I’d say that psychologically, it might be a natural reaction for SOME) for some who realize the magnitude/depth/breadth/etc. of what they’ve done, to become depressed, or otherwise psychologically and/or emotionally unwell. Beyond just a normal sadness and regret and remorse. And so, because this seems so understable to many, and makes so much sense, to many, it is as though a person just seems to, without thinking, even often subconsciously, assume that the reverse is true . . . .
AND IT IS NOT. Everyone is a sinner to one degree or another, but just because someone is mentally ill, it does NOT MEAN THAT IT IS BECAUSE OF SOME SPIRITUAL FLAW, SOME CHARACTER FLAW, OR SOME ACTION OR INACTION THAT IS NOT RIGHT WITH THE LORD. It does NOT mean that it is because of any of those. ALL IT MEANS IS THAT THE PERSON IS ILL. That is ALL it means!!!
Sorry for shouting, lol.
Anyway, I’ve probably rambled too long, and possibly opened a can o’worms.
Regardless of the person’s state of personal worthiness (as judged by the judge in Israel (the bishop) and God), we should not be equating the two. We should accept that the person has an illness, with no strings attached to that, regardless of the person’s state of spirit.
I don’t think I’m making my point well, which is why I keep trying it from slightly different angles. Ah, well, I think maybe you know what I’m trying to say . . . .
THINK about it! For many people, for whom their mental illnesses started in childhood, did we, did I, as a child, do something so bad that God decided to punish me with this?
THINK about the ludicrousness of that. And then I don’t think it is good, productive, or valuable to say that OH, well, only those whose illnesses started as a child, or is from abuse of whatever kind, are justifiably mentally ill, with no sin or whatnot related to it . . . just accept that mental illness IS, just like the fact that a car could crash into yours at any moment through no fault of your own . . . these things just ARE, with no fault. (the car crash example is not the perfect analogy in that regard, as someone did crash into YOU, but let’s assume that something unforeseen and out of their control, or anyone else’s, caused the crash).
Stuff happens, it isn’t fair, it doesn’t always have a cause one can point to, although it is human nature to want to FIND a cause.
Sorry, that’s enough for now, far too much. Lol!
Jack,
The reason why I asked is the way she stated it was the reverse of what most people assume, and yet some might indeed conclude that depression was evidence of righteousness on a couple of theories, notably the Job theory, the work so hard I suffer theory, and the spiritual sensitivity theory, all of which are manifest by degrees from time to time.
As you identify, part of the difficulty surrounding depression relates to getting others to accept a valid definition of it. I think that the symptoms noted at this link could blaze a trail to a common ground among the various views represented within the church (though, admittedly, feminists may object to it’s male-centricity).