According to Mormon doctrine, children who die before the age of accountability are fast-tracked straight to the Celestial Kingdom. This idea creates all sorts of numbers problems. Infant and early childhood mortality claim large numbers of children every year. In many areas of the world, chances of dying before the age of five remain shockingly high — around 20% in much of Africa. In total, eleven million children under the age of five die annually — ninety percent of them in developing countries.
Why does this matter? Recall that the total membership of the church is only eleven million. If every single baptized member of the church alive today made it to the celestial kingdom — no inactivity, no sins, no problems — we would still, as a body, barely match the number of children who died worldwide, prior to the age of accountability, in 2005 alone.
If we go back to 1995, the total number of baptized members of record who existed at any point in that span is going to be higher — perhaps twelve or thirteen million over that time. Again, let’s assume that we all go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. During the same time frame, though, early childhood mortality killed 10+ million children, every single year. That’s a Celestial Kingdom composed of 100+ million fast-track children, and maybe 13 million lifetime-baptized members — barely 10% of the total. As we stretch back to 1985, or 1975, the overall numbers get more and more skewed. (And recall that childhood mortality has been much higher worldwide, prior to the past few decades. Today’s rates of infant and early childhood mortality are the lowest they’ve ever been. In 1900, nearly every country on earth had an infant mortality rate of 15% or higher — several times today’s rates.)
So even with a fast-growing church, the lowest infant mortality rates in history, and an assumption of 100% salvation for baptized members, we still have a Celestial Kingdom that’s composed of 90% fast-track arrivals. If we drop the assumption of 100% salvation, and factor in the fact that infant mortality has been much higher in the past, the numbers are even more striking. If children who die before the age of accountability are fast-tracked to the Celestial Kingdom, it’s hard to imagine that the percent of fast-track arrivals in the Celestial Kingdom will be less than 95% — and it will probably be higher. Those people who arrive via lifetime baptisms will be a tiny, tiny minority. How do we make sense of this?
It seems that there are three basic options.
First, perhaps our concept of a Celestial-Kingdom fast track is wrong. Children who die before the age of accountability are not damned, but they’re not guaranteed salvation either. They’ll have to earn it, like everyone else, some time in the Millenium. And some of them will go to degrees of glory other than the Celestial. I like this idea myself, because it seems to make sense. However, it also goes directly against Moroni 8 and D&C 137:10.
Second, perhaps the ratio of lifetime to fast-track arrivals will level out again at some future date. For this to happen, worldwide infant and early childhood mortality rates would have to drop precipitously and church membership would have to grow precipitously — and that state would need to exist for a long time. However, several decades of exponential church growth, coupled with exponential drops in infant and early childhood mortality, could eventually balance the scales. It could conceivably even tip them in the other direction.
Absent either of those possibilities, it seems inevitable that the Celestial Kingdom will be heavily (95/5) skewed towards fast-track arrivals. Which brings us to our third option: Perhaps our concept of the role of mortality is all wrong.
Perhaps we on earth are the losers. Everyone else gets a guarantee. They’ve already shown all the faith they had to show, they did that in the pre-existence. However, we here on Earth are essentially the bottom 5% of the spirits who chose to follow God. As a result, we’ve got to show our faith again. For everyone else — the vast majority of spirits — mortality is a mere formality. They’ve already done what they need to do to be saved. For us, however, mortality is necessary. We apparently didn’t do what we needed to do during the time that most of the spirits made it; as a result, we’re in remedial summer school. Everyone else passed the third grade already and is playing in their sprinklers; we’re reviewing math. This idea is internally consistent, but it’s a very different conception of the role of mortality than we usually hear in church.
Am I missing any other options? How can we explain the numbers problems caused by infant mortality and our conception of fast-track salvation for children who die before the age of accountability?
“According to general Mormon lore” might better be phrased, “according to specific Mormon revelation.” D&C 137:10. Just a small point on the way to what will be a great discussion.
How can we explain the numbers problems caused by infant mortality and our conception of fast-track salvation for children who die before the age of accountability?
Perhaps the numbers figuring would need to include the inhabitants on other worlds created by God.
Costanza #1,
Fixed, thanks. :)
Kaimi, it seems to me that you’ve overlooked one obvious possibility: It is that unbaptized children will be saved in the celestial kingdom, but not necessarily exalted. In that case the hypothetical 5% are the only ones who can get to the “top” of the Celestial Kingdom. Using your language, only those who go through the trials of post-8-year-old existence can be among the “winners.”
I don’t offer that as claim, just as one more logical possibility for Kaimi’s list.
Perhaps reaching the age of accountability is a hazardous adventure for extra credit.
The rules being:
“If you want to stick it out for more than eight years on that blue globe, you’re allowed to go for it with the contingency that if you just happen to get sealed in the temple (a remote possibility given access to the gospel, priesthood and temples worldwide throughout world history), you get eternal lives instead of just eternal life. But if you don’t make it, we’ve got some not-as-alluring door prizes and if you really screw up, you’re never coming back!”
“But with proxy work, those of you who do happen to get married can also be sealed retroactively …”
It sounds like the proposition of “I’ll give you $75 now or the chance to draw from a hat that may have anywhere between $100 to nothing, plus the possibility you may draw an IOU!”
The caveat to my scenario above is that you have to assume you have the CHOICE to live past the age of accountability (as if children choose to die).
Hmmmm, interesting question. I don’t know which I would rather take. Lose out on experiencing life or head straight into the afterlife (where I’m sure they were put to work right away). The question of numbers is truly a fascinating one. Currently according to the IIASA and the Wikipedia citation on world population, the World nets about 80 million new people each year. I used to know the citation that showed that on average just over 100,000,000 humans are born every year right now. If look at what this means, with growth being exponential, just how many people are we talking were ever, are currently, or will be, alive on this planet (and let’s not even get into the “worlds without number” that God has created!). And let’s not even forget that we are soon to reach the Millenium, or 1000 years of peace and reign of righteousness. Just imagine how populated our world will be! During the Millenium, how many children will die before the age of accountability? Probably not that many. I think it will even out.
And just because I like to be anal, as of 31 December 2005, the church membership was 12,560,869.
You think we have it tough. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have it worse!
And anybody who believes in reincarnation has it worse still. Roughly 99% of all creatures are bugs, and about 99% of all bugs are ants. So that means 9,999 out of 10,000 times, they’ll be reincarnated as ants.
Did you just base this post on the assumption that only people who are baptized on earth in their lifetime into the church will make it to the CK?
“However, we here on Earth are essentially the bottom 5% of the spirits who chose to follow God.”
I don’t know if “bottom 5%” is the best way to characterize it. I think post-accountability-age earth life is more like a leadership training school than some sort of remedial class. The people who go through the grueling experience of extra testing will be more prepared for extra exaltation, I think.
Also, what about all the vicarious work that we do? The ratio of Mormons to non-Mormons in the CK could be miniscule.
…but, Jim makes a good point, one that is consisntent with Joseph’s theology.
Yes, I think Susan M’s got a good point. If you start including those who have been or ever will be baptized by proxy, then that vastly increases the number of “baptized members” in relation to “fast-track arrivals.”
I posted the following at NewCoolThang back in May on a slightly different topic. The last paragraph relates to the topic at hand.
My model is a variation of Geoff’s model 1, see ( http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/ ) but allows for eternal progression within each kingdom. It implies no particular geography. The kingdoms are defined solely in terms of the opportunities for progression that each presents—they could overlap geographically (that is, members of all kingdoms could reside on any given planet).
The most important feature of my model is that progress is multidimensional. The traditional version of model 1 (and, for that matter, Geoff’s other models) views progress as strictly linear, with your kingdom assignment dependent upon which of three segments you land on. Naturally, one would conclude that eternal progression is impossible in the lower two kingdom’s under model 1. (Actually, I could refute that too, but since I reject the linear model, there is no point.) For convenience, I present my model as allowing progress in three dimensions, the meanings of which I leave open, for the moment, to individual interpretation. In the telestial kingdom, you would be limited to progress without constraint along a single dimension—basically the linear model we are used to thinking about. In the terrestrial kingdom, you would be able to progress without constraint in two dimensions. In the celestial kingdom, we would be able to progress without constraint along all three dimensions.
For me, this model resolves the issue of how those who die in before the age of accountability can be automatic heirs to the celestial kingdom. It does not guarantee that their progression will exceed that of those in other kingdoms, only that it will not be externally constrained. Thus, a celestial being could squander his unconstrained opportunities and make no real progress, while somebody in the telestial kingdom could make enormous progress along the single dimension available to him.
“The ratio of Mormons to non-Mormons in the CK could be miniscule.”
I have always thought, for several reasons, that this is by far the most likely scenario.
re: 15 Sure countin’ on it ! Actually, my vision of the CK is more along the lines of the final scene in Monty Python’s “Meaning Of Life” when they all go to heaven. Afterlife mint, anyone?
I suspect the postmortum conversion rate will be higher than here. I mean, if all the non-LDS dead wake up in some limbo-like spirit prison and then white-shirted Elders pull up on their bikes, don’t you think they’ll be a bit more likely to listen the second time around?
There is a Dialogue article from several years ago that takes a stab at calculating the total number of people who have died under the age of 8. If I remember correctly, the number is over 30 billion. Perhaps someone can find the link.
Also, interestingly, the number of boys who have died before age 8 greatly exceed the number of young girls to do so. So much for the need for celestial polygamy, I suppose.
I don’t profess to have the definitive answer to Kaimi’s question. However, I cannot believe that those who have died under the age of 8 will be denied the opportunity to achieve the same degree of eternal glory that any of us may receive. The suggestion otherwise strikes me as fundamentally unjust. (In other words, I cannot accept the option raised by Jim in #4.)
At the same time, I have a hard time believing that the billions who have died before age 8 are granted automatic passage to the celestial kingdom. I suppose that puts me in box number one, at least pending further light and knowledge.
I have thought about this in the past as well. It does seem that there will be many many times the number of \”died before the age of accountability\” exhalted beings that us poor slobs who made it past 8, happened the hear or be born into the gospel, and manage to be one of the few who hold to the rod.
I remember as a teenager being told that we were the greatest, the elect, a special generation held back to the last days. Considering that the true elect and special are the billions of children who were more worthy than I and so only needed a body, this gives me a great dose of humilty :)
Some above have suggested that the number of people who might accept in the afterlife might balance things out a bit, but if I remember rightly, we still preach that people really don\’t change in the afterlife, and it is likely that if they wouldn\’t have accepted and made it in this life if they had a chance, they still won\’t then. I am thinking that the numbers will still be skewed.
If I manage to make it to the Celestial Kingdom, I am get the feeling that I will be in a minority. I guess it is kind of like summer school. Students who don\’t drop out of school (the third of hosts) either graduate during the school year (those worthy in the pre-existence) or they have to go to summer school as a second chance. We are the losers who failed regular school, and had to come back and try one more time for the hoped dor passing grades.
Gives you perspective, huh!
So, we were the “fence-sitters” in the preexistence? I can accept that. I’m just glad Heavenly Father sent someone to save me. I would be a big loser otherwise–no matter what the full scope of the situation is.
Randy B – thank you for highlighting that throughout history the infant mortality rate of males has always been higher. I always think of this when I listen to people go on about the supposed vast gender ratio difference there will be in the future. It’s eternity, infinity, anything is possible, and I like to think of Heavenly Father being “fair and balanced”.
“However, we here on Earth are essentially the bottom 5% of the spirits who chose to follow God.”
That would put a whole new spin on that “fence-sitter” assumption so popular in the ’50s and ’60s.
Also, how does that jive with the fact that 3 out of 4 of us probably have a statement in our patriarchal blessings saying we were valiant spirits saved for these latter days? Are you calling me a valiant fence sitter? :)
I suppose I’m having a hard time trying to figure out what the problem is? All of us from the smallest infant to the oldest man rely completely on the grace of God, and the attonement of Jesus Christ. Baptism was designated as the way to follow God and take his name as our own. Children are exempt because they at that moment in this life can not make that choice, they don’t comprehend good and evil. Now maybe there will be something instigated in the millenium but it is enough for me to know that these precious souls are granted salvation by the atonement. That is not a problem, it is great mercy. If you have had to sit at the bed side of a small premature infant and feel the spirits around them, you would never ask this question. They are pure and innocent, and I’m grateful for a God that allows for their innocence to be preserved. I am not convinced that it means they are better than us, just that they are given different opportunities, and yes I believe choice in the matter.
Absent either of those possibilities, it seems inevitable that the Celestial Kingdom will be heavily (95/5) skewed towards fast-track arrivals.
Kaimi, I just don’t see why this is a problem and why it should cause us to re-think the irreverently labelled “fast-track doctrine.” Are you suggesting there should be a forced quota/proportion of saved infants vs. endure to the end lifers?
Also, on what basis do you assert that we here on earth are the “bottom 5%” of those faithful to God in the preexistence? The bottom? That doesn’t make any sense. If your numbers are even remotely accurate (you will admit they are pure speculation), then just because lifers will make up a smaller percentage (according to you, 5%) of those in the celestial kingdom, does not mean they are the bottom 5%, as if the celestial kingdom were a law school class in which only the top 5% get the good jobs.
In fact, I would guess that zero-sum-game mentality is an attribute of the telestial world, the state of being in which we now live.
This post might make a great example of creating a controversy where there simply is none.
At any rate, if through the grace of Christ I am blessed to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, I will be grateful — indeed it would be my honor and pleasure — to share in exalted celestial glory with those who died in developing countries and elsewhere as infants.
Far from causing Latter-day Saints to rethink the doctrine of the salvation of infants who die before the age of accountability, the vast billions of humans who have died as infants but without baptism stand as a witness to the infamy of a doctrine that postulates that they are damned in an eternal hell — or stuck in limbo — because they did not receive baptism before they died to erase “original sin.”
Mormons in this life a small percentage yes. However, *every* adult in the celestial kingdom will be a Mormon by the time they get there. In fact, according to Joseph Smith, one cannot be saved with consenting to keep the commandments, and Brigham Young said that one cannot inherit the *telestial* glory without baptism.
By mouth of two witnesses, we may easily conclude then that all heirs of salvation will be baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Anyone who does not wish to be sanctified through obedience will remain, returning to their own place, because they were not willing to abide by the terms of the gift God wished to bestow upon them (cf. D&C 88:24,32 et seq).
“without consenting”
I\’ve always thought the Mormon doctrine of fast-track salvation for children was strange. It seems to give incentive to a truly selfless person to sacrifice her own salvation to save as many souls as possible by killing children under 8.
Thus, we believe, as revealed by Jesus Christ to Moroni, that
It is truly an enlightening doctrine and stems directly from the doctrine that people are punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
2 Ne. 33:12 “And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.”
I am not quite a universalist. I hope, pray, and believe that “many, if not all” (99.99% of God’s children (if not a higher percentage)) will ultimately make choices to be saved in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.
DavidH,
Admirable Goal. I like your spirit.
The telestial has glory “surpassing all understanding”, is composed of those who are consent to comply with divine law and are “heirs of salvation”, and is part of the kingdom of God. We can say with some assurance that most of God’s children who made it to this life will eventually repent and be saved. According to Joseph Smith, the contention in the war in heaven was about whether some would not be saved, so we must assume that there will be those as well – a relative minority presumably, but it is hard to say how many – at a minimum it requires knowing rebellion against God – spirit of bloodshed is a classic symptom.
Kaimi, I’m having deja-vu. Is this post an expansion of a comment you made somewhere in the Bloggernacle some time ago?
Aaron B
Tanya in #21, you raised an interesting point with your comment on CHOICE. Who is to say that we didn’t choose to be here and those who died chose to be there? Keeping in mind that a loving Heavenly Father a) already knows how we will end up and b) will not only make it TOTALLY FAIR and just for us, but will and has done everything to stack the odds in OUR favor, could we have simply chosen to be here or there, perhaps hoping to use our talents to their greatest extent? Although we live in a telestial realm, whose to say that everything up there is peaches and cream and not hard work? Instead of the school-grades model, could it simply be like being called (or choosing) to go on a mission to Oklahoma instead of Kansas?
Well known liturgy to the contrary, the idea that this world is a telestial realm in the same sense that the telestial kingdom is a telestial realm is beyond comprehension, literally.
The glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses all understanding.
In regards to comment #24, I’m not sure it’s accurate to say that “*every* adult in the celestial kingdom will be a Mormon by the time they get there.” Technically, a “Mormon” is nickname for a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a temporal institution of this dispensation. Perhaps you can say that all will be members of the Church of Jesus Christ, if you stretch the term “Church” by using the idea that the Church of Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God on Earth, and thus given that the Earth will become the celestial kingdom those residing there will be members of that Kingdom (or of that “church”). But they won’t all be Mormons.
To a larger issue, then, I think this idea of choice might find a very striking parallel in 3 Nephi 28. Christ offered his disciples a choice as to what they want to do. 9 of the 12 choose to have their salvation guaranteed to come as soon as possible. The other 3 choose to forego quick salvation in order to spend as much time as possible serving on this Earth.
Would some be willing to risk guaranteed salvation in order to do as much good as possible? Yes, if they had enough faith in the saving power of the Atonement. Complete and utter speculation, of course, but it’s something to contemplate.
Technically, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same Church as existed in the time of the Apostles, and the same Church as will exist in the kingdom of heaven According to Joseph Smith “Mormon” means literally “more good”. Sounds like a good name for the doctrine of Jesus Christ compared to the doctrine of the Jews of his time, as well as the doctrine of the Restoration compared to doctrine of conventional Christianity. In fact maybe instead of complaining about how other Christians say that we are not of their faith, we should say that they are of ours – Mor mons in the proper sense of the word – just a little off the beaten path.
After all there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism – and anyone who worships him in sincerity may justly be said to be a seeker after more good – a Mormon in other words – they just don’t know it yet.
#34, Think about what you just said again… and how it might actually describe earth as we know it… a glory that surpasses all understanding [and therefore appreciation].
Kaimi,
I think the key is in the wording of D&C 137:10.It says such children are saved in the are “the celestial kingdom of heaven.” This is the only time this phrase is used in scripture. I believe that the “Celestial Kingdom of God” (verse 7) is where those that died and are awarded exaltation go. The “celestial kingdom of heaven” is the place where we dwelt with God before birth. Because “no unclean thing” can enter the presence of God – those of us who are accountable must go to Paradise or Prison until judgement. Those who were not accountable can return to dwell with the Father, because they are still clean. They will then return to earth during the millennium to be given the opportunity to exercise their agency and choose, having had an earthly experience, whether they will continue in their progression or not.
That is how I have reconciled it within myself. For me the issue was not numbers, but the fact that such children would not be able to make an informed choice and exercise their agency without the ability to choose NOT to follow God’s plan after experiencing earth life.
Kaimi,
I think the key is in the wording of D&C 137:10.It says such children are saved in the are “the celestial kingdom of heaven.” This is the only time this phrase is used in scripture. I believe that the “Celestial Kingdom of God” (verse 7) is where those that died and are awarded exaltation go. The “celestial kingdom of heaven” is the place where we dwelt with God before birth. Because “no unclean thing” can enter the presence of God – those of us who are accountable must go to Paradise or Prison until judgement. Those who were not accountable can return to dwell with the Father, because they are still clean. They will then return to earth during the millennium to be given the opportunity to exercise their agency and choose, having had an earthly experience, whether they will continue in their progression or not.
That is how I have reconciled it within myself. For me the issue was not numbers, but the fact that such children would not be able to make an informed choice and exercise their agency without the ability to choose NOT to follow God’s plan after experiencing earth life.
Sorry about the duplicate – my computer froze and I though I lost the comment.
One more thing I forgot to add.
The “saved” part of 137:10 could mean just that – not saved as in salvation, but saved as in money at a bank. Those that did not experience accountability are “saved” until the millennium and then sent back to earth to gain their experience and exercise their agency. Perhaps in a less tempting environment than us (a reward for having to do it twice) but one where choices can be made nonetheless.
This string is full of people trying to rationalize or wrest the clear statement of the scriptures.
Why can’t we just say that the children who die are saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom just like a faithful baptized member will be? Who cares if that dwarfs the number of people who were baptized?
Why are we trying to diminish the power of the Atonement? I’m sorry, but the “fast-track” seems a policy implemented by an all-loving and all-merciful Father God.
And by the way Kaimi, your statement that “[Children]’ll have to earn [exaltation], like everyone else, some time in the Millenium [sic]” demonstrates a troublesome misunderstanding of the Atonement….but that would be a thread-jack, so I shouldn’t have just typed it.
This post assumes a finite number of spirits. It assumes a zero-sum game. It’s just strange. Put me in agreement with all the other commenters who think it’s lookng for problems where there are none.
Am I in the “bottom 5%” of spirits? The Lord has created worlds without end, and spirits without number. Bottom 5% of endless is a pretty useless number to think about. Also, I don’t think we’ll be walking around in the Celestial Kingdom saying ‘ so, were you a fast-tracker or a mortality person? How’s that working for you?’
Mark Butler (#36)… Why did you qualify your statement with the word “technically”? The Mormon Church today IS—unequivocally—the same Church that existed during the time of the Apostles, not “technically”. Today’s Church is also the same Church that existed during the time of Joseph Smith—*nothing* significant has changed. And the same Church that existed during Christ’s reign with the Nephites, I might add. Truth is eternal.
The “savedâ€? part of 137:10 could mean just that – not saved as in salvation, but saved as in money at a bank. Those that did not experience accountability are “savedâ€? until the millennium and then sent back to earth to gain their experience and exercise their agency.
This would coincide with that concept of parents being able to raise their deceased children in the Millenium. I would tend to think, though, that the saved as in salvation also applies. (Isn’t that the case in the Millenium? (“…and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation” (D&C 45:58))
Pickles (#36), The reason is that our title includes “Latter-Day Saints”, as if we were a reorganization of the “The Church of Jesus Christ of Former Day Saints”, and not actually just the local diocese of the Church of Jesus Christ in heaven.
Technically, “technically” doesn’t have to mean “only as a matter of
formality”, but without getting too far into the metaphysics of organizational identity I stipulate that a better choice here would be “actually”.
I have just been hanging around philosophers too much – what I meant was, according to the law of heaven, the latter day Church and the former day Church are one and the same organization, regardless of local legal conventions (cf. beer mug discussion in other thread)
It is hard for me to argue too strenuously with Zionism when the Old Testament is littered with it:
Sorry, wrong thread.
Consider the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16). I’ve wondered if this parable doesn’t relate to the length of our lives and the reward we will receive in the judgement. Will there be those who will begrudge the child who died in infancy a place in the celestial kingdom simply because they didn’t labor in the vineyard as long as we did? My son died at 18 and we’ve had a still-born. I wouldn’t argue with the Lord about his authority or justice in rewarding them the same as I who have labored here for nearly a half a century. In fact, I hope he does. Perhaps Methuselah and his contemporaries will think that we deserve less because we have labored briefly compared to them.
1 FOR the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the alast shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Kaimi:
I prefer the long productive pre-existance approach to this. I think you have some flaws in how you express the results of this.
I like Jims explanation that there are levels in the CK. Also your view of us being the bottom 5%, only the bottom 5% of those in the CK would make more sense and feel better. I have no problem with a crowded CK.
This discussion makes me feel like for many people, the whole idea of being Mormon is reaping the reward. That idea seems wrongheaded or misguided to me. Like people who go to school to get As, in other words, instead of being like those who go to learn cool stuff that they didn’t know, or to become better people, or to have greater understanding of things. The promise about children who die young just means to me that they won’t lose any eternal opportunities because of it.
Don’t forget that there is eternal progression. We have a lot more left to do of growing and learning before we’re gods. There’s more to the spirit world than just hanging around waiting for eternity to happen. It hasn’t been revealed, I guess because we need to focus on this life for now, but there is just a whole lot more after this. =)
Thanks Tatiana. I agree.
Maybe this numbers problem explains why Joseph and other deceased prophets were so darn busy when seen in the vision by Joseph F Smith.
#44
I believe that they can grow up without sin, but that does not preclude them from being able to make a choice on whether or not they want to accept the conditions of exaltation. They are placed in a “safe” environment, but I am a believer that all individuals will be given the choice to move on in their progression, and I feel many will choose not to because of their experiences here on earth will give them insights to a future they may not want.
I prefer the theory that us “noble and great ones” qualified for an early death and an automatic entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, but were offered (and accepted) a calling to remain alive through adulthood. I don’t know whether everyone under that contract will eventually end up in the CK or not, but it does seem to solve some of the numbers problems.
“perhaps the ratio of lifetime to fast-track arrivals will level out again at some future date. For this to happen, worldwide infant and early childhood mortality rates would have to drop precipitously and church membership would have to grow precipitously — and that state would need to exist for a long time. However, several decades of exponential church growth, coupled with exponential drops in infant and early childhood mortality, could eventually balance the scales. It could conceivably even tip them in the other direction. ”
You’re ignoring the dead who have their ordinances done.
Also, like Jim F., I’m inclined to think the salvation that children are guaranteed is salvation in the Celestial Kingdom but not exaltation in its highest degree, which still involves choice on their part. I’ve laid out my reasons in several past posts for thinking that children who die before the age of eight are raised in the Millennium and that people raised in the millennium are by default in the Celestial Kingdom, but can choose exaltion in it, or damnation as sons of perdition.
Like some others here, I don’t see a numbers problem, no matter what the numbers. Might the CK be overbooked? What is the proper ratio? Quota? Affirmative action, anyone?
The results of justice and mercy need to be right for each individual, whether he or she dies at birth or at 120. If they are right, then other numbers don’t matter. If they aren’t right for any individual, then the numbers don’t matter, either. IMO.
Fun and interesting topic.
From #35 N.G.==”…Would some be willing to risk guaranteed salvation in order to do as much good as possible? Yes, if they had enough faith in the saving power of the Atonement…”
In other words, we are the TOP 5%?
I’ve believed something similar to this for a long time and am often ridiculed for it. Mormonism is not an exclusive club, rather, it is the reposibility of us 1 percent of the earths population to provide the ordinances of salvation for the rest of the human race, so they can learn their life lessons. Mormonism is our calling.
You can figure that Mormons will be even less of the majority than Kaimi alludes to. John Taylor taught that the success rate of Mormon missionaries in the post-mortal spirit world would be much higher than mortality. If 90 percent of the earth’s surviving population (excluding children who die before the age of accountability and other “innocents”) didn’t have the chance to hear the gospel because they lived in china in 2300 BC -1700 AD, or deepest, darkest africa, or on earth for the 1800 years after the apostles died, or whatever, those people will also likely be saved in the CK. When you add up those numbers realistically, you are getting a 85+ celestial kingdom success rate of those who come to this earth (assuming they lived in accordance with the light they recieved, and accept the gospel afterward). Then you add in those who just plain didn’t understand the gospel (1 Peter 3 and 4) until after they died and were NOT blinded by the craftiness of men. You get quite a success rate for those who make it to the celestial kingdom. I think that is great news!
God’s work and glory of bringing to pass our eternal life will be much more successful than we in the “Mormon club” typically think. I’m not saying everyone will be saved, nor am I an advocate of a free-ticket system, but I am saying that according to revelation, more than 85 percent of the earths population from the time of adam to now will have a good chance at exaltation.
However, the difference is that it is the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to ensure the ordinances are done for everyone else, and that the gospel is proclaimed to the living. Its our responsilbity to get temple work and missionary work done, just as much as it was Christ’s responsibility to perform the atonement. Not that we are not equal with Christ, but we have a work to do that is just as essential to connect the sealing links in order to save ourselves. This is what we were foreordained to do. This was our calling and election as children of israel. Using this thought we are literally placed as saviors on mount zion, as equal partners with God and Christ to help save the human race – kinda makes you feel a bit more urgency, eh?
And it makes you feel special to be one of the house of israel that if you do your duty will be thanked in a similar way as Christ as a savior on mt. zion.
This also explains the few called, many chosen argument. We are called to perform our labor, but how many of us actually are elected (chosen) and perform the work? The few called and chosen deal with the workers (the saints), not the wage earners (those who are exalted).
Kaimi,
Have you read Melvin J. Ballard’s discourse, “Three Degrees of Glory”? It will give you further insight, but unfortunately, it will add more questions to your core question.
Quoting from “Three Degrees”:
“Now, my brothers and sisters, I would like you to understand that long before we were born into this earth we were tested and tried in our pre-existence and the fact that of the thousands of children born today, a certain proportion of them went to the Hottnetots of the south seas, thousands went to the Chinese mothers, thousands to Negro mothers, thousands to beautiful white Latter-day Saint mothers. Why this difference? You cannot tell me that the entire group was just designated, marked to go where they did. That they were men and women of equal worthiness. There are no infant spirits born. They had a being ages before they come into this life. They appear in infant bodies, but they were tested, proven souls. Therefore I say to you that long before we came into this life, all groups and races of men existed as they exist today. Like attracts to like.”
And a few sentences later, “The races of today are very largely repaing the consequences of a previous life.”
Ballard’s clearly lays out the fence sitters are in his Church published and tabernacle delivered discourse.
The discourse also examines that we can be delivered of certain sins through time in spirit “hell”. The last 1000 years – are that long according to Ballard, because that is how long the last human(s) will have to live in spirit hell to fully repent for their sins so they may progress to the Teles/Terr kingdom upon Ressurection.
With this knowledge, it could be viewed that all children of all races unborn or dying before the age of accountability, are those that in our previous life had attained a higher level of honor in the eyes of HF. They do not have to live a life that is with or long in accountablility. Before the age of accountability, these children do not need to live long enough to commit some sin and then spend time repenting in spirit hell. They are “taken” early because they are of high esteem within their race. Those left to mourn children have to question and try to understand their own position in the pre- and post- mortal worlds. Are they to feel the pain as a form of atonement? The question is unanswered.
This of course does not justify abortion. Rather, it holds LDS to a higher accountability than all other peoples. We have the specific teachings on why we need to bring life into this world – we have the highest, fullest teaching to date and are held to that more that those that have not recieved the fullness of the Gospel. It is imperative to get the word out to all people so they are not limited to the Tel kingdom – they too can receive ordinances to attain higher levels – and the true understanding of the PoS can come to light as a new way to place political and social structures in place to come closer to a true Zion on earth.
It’s a discourse filled with many ponderings for the Latter-day Saint. It’s a harsh discourse for those LDS, and non-LDS that desire to create and live in a postmodernist world that demands tolerance and holds John Stuart Mills philosophy of utilitarianism with high regard.
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Now about the Cel kingdom. Granted, we do not have knowledge of how celestial bodies will vary from Ter or Tel bodies. We only know that Cel beings will inhabit the earth.
Currently the earth has somewhere around 6.5 billion living inhabitants. Take in account all the spirits that got and will get a card directly past earth to the Cel kingdom. With that math, it is not so hard to laugh at a JW claim of 244,000 if we take the teaching literally.
Everyone that dies before the age of eight will be exalted too. Bruce R mcconkie talked about that in the ensign. Is it possible for an exalted being to apostatize? Generally Salvation and Exaltation mean same thing and if some dies before 8 that means that for whatever reason in pre earth life all the need is a body and will be exalted.
Kaimi,
I don’t understand why you have a problem with option #3, that of being “outnumbered” by the “fast-track” arrivals” in the CK.
I have no problem with the idea that those of us who “need” mortality are outnumbered by those who don’t. But your analogy that those of us whose lot is to live out our mortal probation are in “remedial summer school” may be plausible, but is hardly certain.
We may rightfully assume that those who die as infants didn’t “need” a mortal probation, but even if that’s true, we don’t know why they didn’t need it and we do.
As long as we accept (and I do accept) the explanation that those who die as infants didn’t “need” mortality (for whatever reason), the relative populations of the various categories you construct (of how people get to the CK) are moot points.